Wings of the Free World: What If The Avro Arrow entered service?

[Ming777]

This seems ok to me, the air to air missiles, would they be the AIM-54 Phoenix or the AIM-7 Sparrow, though the Phoenix would be the better choice?

Looking forward to the next part

I'm thinking a Canadianized variant of the Phoenix missile. The good thing is that since Hughes now has two Arrows as testbeds, they will likely use the arrow to test the long ranged missile, which would also prove its viability for active duty Arrows. They could also work on the AIM-54 in a joint collaboration with the Canadian, seeing as our northern soviet bomber intercepts was the very situation the Phoenix was designed for.

 

[Ming777]

June, 1963

The first Royal Saudi Avro Arrows are completed and are flown to Saudi Arabia in the middle of the month.

In Britian, Avro begins work on the first home-built version of the Avro Arrow. The British arrows were initially going to use the Rolls-Royce Spey, however, the engine was found to be lacking in performance. Even at maximum afterburners, the thrust was about the same as the Iroquois engine without afterburners. As a result, the RAF changed their minds and decided to use the Canadian Engine, which was superior to most engines of the time.

Japan also received their first four Avro Arrows. Mitsubishi was to build the additional aircraft using kits delivered by Avro Canada, who was recieving a significant amount of commission for the license. The first pilots who completed training in Canada praised the aircraft's ludicrous acceleration, advanced technology, and overall performance.

Israel was continuing negotiations over the purchasing of the Arrow. There were now plans for the Israelis to lease the CF-105As current in 419 Squadron which would then receive the newer B variant. They would also receive new B variant units as soon as there is an opening in the production line.

The other significant order was from the Royal Australian Air Force. With Austrailia looking to modernize their air force, replacing several types. The most likely candidates was a modified Dassault Mirage fitted with the Iroquois Orenda Engine or the Avro Canada Arrow.

After much deliberation, Australia made its decision on June 20, 1963. The RAAF would purchase 60 Mirage IIIOC (variant with Orenda Iroquois) as well as 48 CF-105B Arrow Mark IIAs. With the unit costs for the arrow shrinking with every order, it was now considered expensive, but well within reasonable limits.

Even so, Avro Canada engineers were looking far ahead, planning for a major update to the Arrow by the 1970s as the Mark III. Before the end of the sixties, several conflicts will influence the direction of the Mark III (CF-105C) project.

 

[TheMann]

McDonnell Douglas must be looking at the number of sold Arrows and be thinking "Shit, shit, SHIT! How has that (expletive) company sold so many of those (expletive) planes! I have no doubt here that McDonnell Douglas will want to improve its chief fighter offering of the time (F-4 Phantom II) to match the Arrow's capabilities. (Good luck. ) The Americans must be probably not too pleased with how many CF-105s were being sold.

If the US Aerospace Industry has less influence abroad (which it obviously does, or those Arrows wouldn't have been sold), does this mean that the Europeans are going with their own airplanes sooner? Earlier Airbus? Short Belfast instead of C-130 (which could be true for Canada as well)?

 

[Ming777]

Of course... there are a small number of Phantom buyers (Turkey, Korea, Iran, Greece, and Spain, possibly, leading to a small number being sent to .) However, the big buyers of Phantoms IOTL chose the Arrow instead (Japan, Israel, Austrailia, UK, and the bigest one yet...) not to mention the Saudis and Canadians. There are also inklings of orders from New Zealand, and India is completely at a loss, split between the Arrow or a Soviet somewhat-equivalent.

The big thing that will be controversial will be a joint black ops program in the 70s involving a particular Arrow (answer: http://forumplanet.gamespy.com/bf1942_modding/b49139/5440934/p1/?7)

 

[TheMann]

Of course... there are a small number of Phantom buyers (Turkey, Korea, Iran, Greece, and Spain, possibly, leading to a small number being sent to .) However, the big buyers of Phantoms IOTL chose the Arrow instead (Japan, Israel, Austrailia, UK, and the bigest one yet...) not to mention the Saudis and Canadians. There are also inklings of orders from New Zealand, and India is completely at a loss, split between the Arrow or a Soviet somewhat-equivalent.

New Zealand won't be ordering too many Arrows, they are not a particularly rich country and do not have much in the way of defense needs, with Australia a thousand miles away and nobody else anywhere near it. India would probably go for the Soviet aircraft, because they were increasingly allied to the USSR at the time. Truthfully, some countries might try both planes.

And as for the Arrows, are we going to see them fighting with MiGs over Jordan and Syria in 1967? And going to Vietnam? India and Pakistan in 1971? South Africa in the Bush War?

 

[Ming777]

I guess a squadron for the Kiwis, and possible a squadron or so for the Indian Air Force.

Israel will prove the deadliness of the Arrow in 1967 (I'm figuring that they'll also make their arrows be able to drop bombs like they did with the Mirages in OTL). They will also do so again in the Yom Kippur War

There will also be a pseudo crossover with your TL, with a deployment to Cyprus in the mid 70s.

Australia will likely use theirs in the final part of their involvement. The end of the 'Nam will also see some covert missions by the other major western air force in the area.

India and Pakistan is likely, though if the Pakistanis are willing to give away their money for Arrows, we could see the first Arrow vs Arrow war.

South Africa is iffy, depending on whether the Canadians in the 1970s will sell to the Apartheid state.

Another situation that will occur is the Falklands War, with the potential of Argentina using early model (ie, MarkII and Mark III) Arrows from Israel versus advanced marks of the Arrow (carrying BVR missiles, cannons, and a more modern canopy).

 

[Ming777]

Rest of 1963

In April, the Front de libération du Québec began its terror bombing campaign against "English-dominated" institutions. When Pearson became Prime Minister, he eventually authorized the creation of a covert special forces/ counter-terrorism unit, the Canadian SAS Regiment. This unit would take a couple of years to become operational, but the inital operators will begin covert missions against the FLQ, in concert with the Surete Du Quebec, and other law enforcement agencies.

The rest of the year was marked by international events, the ongoing conflict in Vietnam, among others. NASA, which now was in a deep partnership with the RCSA, whose technical expertise helped continue the American space program. The Kennedy Administrations desire to go to the moon led to the jointly developed Apollo program, which soon became the primary focus for NASA.

The year was marred by the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy in Dallas, Texas. To this day, there are numerous conspiracy theories and speculation about the events of November 22.

At the end of the year, Avro Canada is still continuing their sucessful sales of the Avro Arrow.

numbers by December 31, 1963

RCAF: (136 in service, 40 currently on order)

409 Squadron, RCAF Comox
16 CF-105B
410 Squadron, RCAF Cold Lake
16 CF-105B
414 Squadron, RCAF North Bay
16 CF-105A
416 Squadron, RCAF Chatham
16 CF-105A
419 Squadron, RCAF Baden-Soellingen
(Arrows to be transferred to IAF in exchange for new aircraft)
12 CF-105A
4 CF-105 Mark II pre-production aircraft
(mostly similar to Standard CF-105A)
423 Squadron, RCAF Cold Lake
8 CF-105Bs, 8 more to be delivered
425 Squadron, RCAF Bagotville
16 CF-105B
428 Squadron, RCAF Uplands
16 CF-105B
432 Squadron, RCAF Bagotville
16 CF-105Bs on order
433 Squadron, RCAF Zweibrücken
16 CF-105Bs on order
440 Squadron, RCAF Winnipeg
12 CF-105AT
4 CF-105A
441 Squadron, RCAF Cold Lake
(To be designated the new OTU)

RAF:
32 MK IIa aircraft have been delivered, 2 British-built Arrows constructed so far.

JASDF:
6 Arrow Mark IIAs delivered with remaining 6 nearing completion.

IAF:
will likely receive the old Arrows of 419 Squadron until they could either license build or purchase newer aircraft. Engineers intend to improve capabilities of their Arrows.

RSAF:
16 Arrow Mk IIs (formerly of 409 Squadron)

RAAF:
48 On Order.

Hughes Aircraft:
2 Aircraft stripped to make way for experimental radar and new AIM-47 Falcon missiles.

 

[Ak-84]

India and Pakistan is likely, though if the Pakistanis are willing to give away their money for Arrows, we could see the first Arrow vs Arrow war.

Pakistan is a certainty, possible before 1965 and definat after 1965, and money is not an issue, the economy has been booming.

And history shows, that a plane one side has is one the other does not buy, so the one who does not get the Arrow will buy the Phantom, not unlike the 1980's when India bought the Mirage 2000 after Pakistan bought the F-16.

 

[whatisinaname]

I like it, though wouldlike ti have seen Rolls-Royce Spey engines fitted to the Arrow

 

[Ming777]

Speys have significantly less power (Spey: 12140 lbf dry, 205000 A/B. Iroquois: 20000 lbf dry, 30000 lbf with A/B) Rolls Royce will need to improve the Spey significantly (at least somewhat comparable to the Iroquois) for it to be adopted.

 

[NothingNow]

Speys have significantly less power (Spey: 12140 lbf dry, 205000 A/B. Iroquois: 20000 lbf dry, 30000 lbf with A/B) Rolls Royce will need to improve the Spey significantly (at least somewhat comparable to the Iroquois) for it to be adopted.

And if they improved it that much, It wouldn't surprise me if the first thing it went into was a super-Buccaneer for the RN and maybe for export. Speaking of British Bombers, is the TSR-2 still on and using the Olympus Mk.320?

 

[TheMann]

And if they improved it that much, It wouldn't surprise me if the first thing it went into was a super-Buccaneer for the RN and maybe for export. Speaking of British Bombers, is the TSR-2 still on and using the Olympus Mk.320?

Good question. The Olympus Turbojets would be good engines for the Arrow, though its not much of an improvement between the Iroquois and the Olympus. If the TSR-2 does enter service, however, it will make sense from a logistics point of view for both planes to use the Olympus. As for the Super-Bucc, Turbojets consume way too much fuel at low altitude, so good turbofans would be a must. What might work for a turbofan for the Bucc, however, might be a version of the Conway, which is considerably more powerful.

 

[NothingNow]

Good question. The Olympus Turbojets would be good engines for the Arrow, though its not much of an improvement between the Iroquois and the Olympus. If the TSR-2 does enter service, however, it will make sense from a logistics point of view for both planes to use the Olympus.

Or the Iroquois. Limited parts commonality with the Vulcan might be a good thing as well. of course, that might lead to someone proposing a low-Supersonic Vulcan derivative (Comparable to the Tu-22,) which might be an absolutely terrible idea in practice, but could have "fun" implications for Soviet intelligence analysts and defense planners.

As for the Super-Bucc, Turbojets consume way too much fuel at low altitude, so good turbofans would be a must. What might work for a turbofan for the Bucc, however, might be a version of the Conway, which is considerably more powerful.

True.
And the Conway should fit easily enough into the Bucc. It's about 3.5" narrower than the Gyron Jr. and only 32" Longer. Heck, with specs like that, you could probably get a higher bypass version in just fine, since it'd still compare well in size with the Mk.202 Spey of the Phantom (No Idea about the Dimensions on the Mk.101, but I doubt they'd be that different.) And I bet the Fleet Air Arm is either getting Phantoms or some sort of Super Crusader for the Ark Royal ITTL regardless of what the RAF does.

Speaking of, it should be possible to shoehorn a Spey mk.202 in the F-8. It'll be a tight fit however.

 

[Kevin R.]

South Africa is iffy, depending on whether the Canadians in the 1970s will sell to the Apartheid state.

Considering that Canada was one of the loudest voices against apartheid, I'd say that "iffy" is quite the understatement when it comes to describing South Africa's chances of getting the Arrow.

 

[RCAF Brat]

Considering that Canada was one of the loudest voices against apartheid, I'd say that "iffy" is quite the understatement when it comes to describing South Africa's chances of getting the Arrow.

It will depend more on if the Canadian government is the same as OTL. Who knows, Pearson might not get reelected in 1965. Or if he does, there is a very good chance that his ATL successor won't be Pierre Elliot Trudeau. And the governments of the '70s are probably going to be very different from OTL. They might not care about South Africa unless it directly impacts them in some way.

 

[TheMann]

Considering that Canada was one of the loudest voices against apartheid, I'd say that "iffy" is quite the understatement when it comes to describing South Africa's chances of getting the Arrow.

That's assuming that a) South Africa goes as OTL and b) Canada's political leaders continue to be those who hate the apartheid state so much (Trudeau and Mulroney in particular). Both of those could change. South Africa spent a lot on building its air force in the 1960s, so I can see Arrows in the service of the SAAF. It would have to be done before about 1970, however, and the SAAF is going to have a bitch of a time getting parts for them in 1980s.....

 

[RogueBeaver]

Problem is they need fighter-bombers, not interceptors. I don't see how you could create a Mud Arrow like the Eagle-Echo. F-4E seems a more logical choice, or the OTL Mirages.

 

[TheMann]

Problem is they need fighter-bombers, not interceptors. I don't see how you could create a Mud Arrow like the Eagle-Echo. F-4E seems a more logical choice, or the OTL Mirages.

It's not hard, Rogue. The F-15, as you rightly point out, was an air superiority tool before a multi-role aircraft, and delta-wing fighters can also do that job. It's the logical evolution for the Arrow, as interceptors won't always be needed by everyone and higher aircraft costs mean that countries will want their airplanes to have the ability to perform multiple roles.

 

[Russell]

It seems that according to most Canadians there is nothing the Arrow cannot do. It'll be going to the moon and fending off alien invasion next. Most cannot accept it was one of the greatest white elephants ever built - even the RCAF were trying to kill it in the end.

The Arrow was a pure bred interceptor, not a tactical fighter. It was never designed with the load bearing to carry bomb loads on low level attacks. It was designed, pure and simple to take down heavy Soviet bombers (a threat which never really materialised in the end). It is not an F-4 or F-15 equivilent - it's a F-106, MIG-25, F-101 or a F-108 (which was also cancelled - the bomber threat it faced having begun to receed).

It would have been the worlds finest high altitude interceptor, just built too late to deal with a changing strategic threat.

Russell

 

[TheMann]

snip

I don't disagree with that in its original form, but airplanes can be changed from their original form to a use its makers never originally intended. The F-8 dogfighter evolved into the A-7 attack airplane. The F-15 Eagle air superiority fighter became the F-15E Strike Eagle, and the same evolution also happened with the F-14 Tomcat. I agree that a dedicated interceptor isn't going to be much use beyond about 1965. But the Arrow is a large plane which would carry a large payload if designers felt it had to.