Windscale alternatives

[RLBH]

When the British nuclear weapons program was (re)started after WW2, the initial thinking was for a graphite moderated, water cooled plutonium-production pile of 300 MW(t) output, similar to the US facility at Hanford. Two sites were identified as suitable on remoteness grounds for production piles: Arisaig in the Scottish Highlands and Harlech (IMHO probably actualy Llanbedr airfield) in Snowdonia.

Harlech was rejected out of hand on the grounds of population and historic importance, then site studies found Arisaig to be an ideal site in every way except for being so remote that an additional two years would be needed to build the plants.

At this point, a safer air cooled reactor was proposed - since convection would suffice to cool the reactor, there was no danger of a loss-of-coolant accident and the piles could be located much closer to settlements. This allowed the reactors - now two of 200 MW(t) each - to be built at ROF Windscale.

This suggests a few what-ifs:

1. What if a Hanford-style water-cooled reactor was built at the Harlech site?
2. What if the air-cooled reactor was rejected on technical grounds, forcing the selection of Arisaig despite its' disadvantages?
3. What if Harlech had been selected in the first instance, then the air-cooled reactor design emerged as a safer option after the site was committed?

 

[WILDGEESE]

According to a program on BBC 2, i watched a fair while ago about the fire at Windscale, the whole nuclear program was to get us back at the top of the table with the USA after they'd snubbed us after the Manhattan project.

Everything about it had to be entirely British designed, developed and financed so we could produce plutonium for the UK's first Atomic then Thermonuclear devices.

After exploding both devices,the UK could then go to the US as equal partners and exchange each others technology.

Unless i've missed something, they'd be a cat in hell's chance of the UK copying or using US technology including the Hanford design reactor on the basis of national prestiege and pride especially as time was of the utmost importance for the detenation of the UK's weapons. These limits thus ruled out the Harlech & Arisaig sites.

Hope this helped you a bit

Regards filer

 

[jsb]

Really interesting, does anybody have any more information about the Arisaig in the Scottish Highlands proposal ? I had never heard about it before even through I travel past the area regularly....

 

[Delta Force]

Water cooled graphite moderated designs can be quite dangerous (see here). It could result in the Windscale Fire becoming a 1956 version of Chernobyl, possibly resulting in multiple reactor failures if Pile 2 is damaged or evacuated as a result.

 

[Simon]

Unless I've missed something, they'd be a cat in hell's chance of the UK copying or using US technology including the Hanford design reactor on the basis of national prestiege and pride especially as time was of the utmost importance for the detenation of the UK's weapons.

Not really, they British scientists used every scrap of information they could remember or had a copy of from working on the Manhattan Project, ironically Klaus Fuchs was a great help in that regards, when developing their nuclear programme to save time and money. They weren't above trying to pump visiting scientists or use visits to the US to try and gain more information either. If they can get their hands on the data for the Hanford reactor design then I really can't see then not using it unless they've somehow got a more efficient alternative. At the end of the day the only thing that counts is attaining nuclear weapons, how you get there is a minor matter.

 

[PMN1]

According to a program on BBC 2, i watched a fair while ago about the fire at Windscale, the whole nuclear program was to get us back at the top of the table with the USA after they'd snubbed us after the Manhattan project.

Everything about it had to be entirely British designed, developed and financed so we could produce plutonium for the UK's first Atomic then Thermonuclear devices.

After exploding both devices,the UK could then go to the US as equal partners and exchange each others technology.

Unless i've missed something, they'd be a cat in hell's chance of the UK copying or using US technology including the Hanford design reactor on the basis of national prestiege and pride especially as time was of the utmost importance for the detenation of the UK's weapons. These limits thus ruled out the Harlech & Arisaig sites.

Hope this helped you a bit

Regards filer

Very interesting and still available on iPlayer

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b065x080

 

[RLBH]

Really interesting, does anybody have any more information about the Arisaig in the Scottish Highlands proposal ? I had never heard about it before even through I travel past the area regularly....

Very little, I'm afraid. Idea seems to have been to use Loch Morar as a source of cooling water, but foundations would be difficult due to the site being on river sediment. To me, that's suggestive of a site near the south-west corner of Loch Morar.

The best information, which isn't much and curiously doesn't mention Harlech, is from the draft of Sir John Cockcroft's memoirs here. The Harlech site is discussed briefly here.

Water cooled graphite moderated designs can be quite dangerous (see here). It could result in the Windscale Fire becoming a 1956 version of Chernobyl, possibly resulting in multiple reactor failures if Pile 2 is damaged or evacuated as a result.

Water cooled graphite moderated designs can be quite dangerous (see here). It could result in the Windscale Fire becoming a 1956 version of Chernobyl, possibly resulting in multiple reactor failures if Pile 2 is damaged or evacuated as a result.

The caveat there is, if they hadn't been blowing cooling air into the core then the fire might not have taken root. The burst can seems likely, but from what I can tell in a water-cooled reactor there shouldn't have been oxygen to feed a fire - the big problem at Chernobyl was that a steam explosion breached the containment and let oxygen in.

If they can get their hands on the data for the Hanford reactor design then I really can't see then not using it unless they've somehow got a more efficient alternative.

I don't think it was intended to build off the same plans as Hanford, more to use the same principles. It was, after all, known to work - anything else would be more experimental.

 

[Simon]

I don't think it was intended to build off the same plans as Hanford, more to use the same principles. It was, after all, known to work - anything else would be more experimental.

Yeah that's mostly what I meant. William Penney, Doctor and later Baron Penney, the head of the nuclear weapons programme basically decided that the first British weapon should be an exact as possible replica of the American Mark III 'Fat Man' device since that was what they had the most data on to save time and money. They only really deviated from that to add some safety features like a removable pit and to levitate it. They'd use the data to build their own version with probably a few changes here and there but overall it would be fairly similar considering that there's only so many variations you can make on the basic design. As I said before they certainly weren't too proud to use whatever they could get their hands on, the goal was more important than how they got there.