Window Used During The Battle of Britain

[eltf177]

During WW2 one of the more effective anti-radar weapons was 'Window', strips of aluminium foil cut to a length where they interferred with radar causing the screens to fill with thousands of meaningless dots. The USAAC and RAF used it to great effect against the Luftwaffe.

But ironically it was the Germans who discovered it first, and didn't use it for fear the Allies would discover the secret and use it against them.

My question is this: If the Luftwaffe decided to use Window during the BoB, how much of a difference would it have made?

My feeling is that it would have significently reduced bomber losses, but in the end I still don't think the Luftwaffe would have reduced RAF strength enough to force England to sue for peace, much less try and initiate Sealion.

But a stronger Luftwaffe would have paid dividends at Barbarossa, possibly enough to reach Moscow before winter set in.

Any thoughts?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I was thinking about this same POD this morning. Well, anything would have been a benifit to the Luftwaffe. The less pilots and aircraft lost would be very important to the Mediterranian, Russia, and especially the airwar over Germany later. Basically with more experienced pilots surviving and able to train the next generation of fighter and bomber pilots, the quality of the LW would be better and more prepared for the trials ahead.

Now with that said there would be a minimal effect on the war. Germany would be swamped under the numbers of Western fighters by '44, but they would suffer greater casualties against the Germans. Basically tougher going, but only and inconvience, not crippling. With Goering in charge the LW is screwed.

The Brits are likely to suffer a proportionally greater loss for less German damage, so the RAF may not reap the same propaganda benifits that they had OTL and are likely to lose more from the BoB. Not necessarily pilots or fighters, but more Bombers are likely to make it through unscathed and are able to punish Britain worse. So prehaps a less willing British nation later in the war after more losses and a better defended Germany until the Americans really appear in force in '44.

 

[Sachyriel]

It could lead to heat-seeking rockets, quicker and more deadly guided missiles...

 

[Sachyriel]

In what way?

Well, if there is a disabling of the early-warning system, the fighters dispatched may need to shoot the bombers coming in quicker, to investigate the other little radar blips with the same amount of fuel, so the new drive is to get a one-shot-one-kill weapon for the air. Missiles are great for this, and infrared-guided systems might get a big jump from this.

 

[Chuck Mandus]

During WW2 one of the more effective anti-radar weapons was 'Window', strips of aluminium foil cut to a length where they interferred with radar causing the screens to fill with thousands of meaningless dots. The USAAC and RAF used it to great effect against the Luftwaffe.

But ironically it was the Germans who discovered it first, and didn't use it for fear the Allies would discover the secret and use it against them.

My question is this: If the Luftwaffe decided to use Window during the BoB, how much of a difference would it have made?

My feeling is that it would have significently reduced bomber losses, but in the end I still don't think the Luftwaffe would have reduced RAF strength enough to force England to sue for peace, much less try and initiate Sealion.

But a stronger Luftwaffe would have paid dividends at Barbarossa, possibly enough to reach Moscow before winter set in.

Any thoughts?

I don't know if chaff would affect the early radar's the Brits had, IIRC, they were of longer wavelengths in the HF (shortwave) and VHF bands, so I don't think chaff would work well there. The Chain Home stations operated in the 20 to 30 megacycle range and the VHF Chain Home Low in the 200 megacycle range. Later in the war with microwaves being used chaff will be more effective.

 

[Shimbo]

It seems quite unlikely to have happened as the Germans didn't really appreciate how effective the British system of radar was, witness their desultory and quickly abandoned attempts to bomb the Chain Home stations.

There's a good article here, emphasising that it was the integrated nature of the British air defence system that made it so effective:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_radar

It's IMO one of those things that in hindsight would have been a good idea (for the Germans), but wasn't even really considered at the time.

Also the 'window' itself would indicate roughly where the enemy bombers were so the British fighters could be vectored there, and during daylight raids could then visually acquire their targets. So the effect on the Battle of Britain would not be large IMO.

The Blitz would be a different story, but as the British didn't shoot many night bombers down anyway, so it still wouldn't make that much difference IMO.

 

[larpsidekick]

Wasn't early RADAR really used as a warning of incoming raid, rather than to count numbers, a longer ranged version of the guys on the white cliffs with binoculars?

In which case, Window may not have had much affect at all, as the release of the strips indicates an incoming raid and the RAF is sent up. Unless the Luftwaffe uses it to create false alarms - but this probabaly leads to an earlier rotation of exhausted pilots.

 

[Nick Sumner]

But ironically it was the Germans who discovered it first, and didn't use it for fear the Allies would discover the secret and use it against them.

Do you have a reference for that?

Not being picky, just curious.

 

[arctic warrior]

Something here, seems both Brits and Germans were onto it at the same time but neighter side wanted to give it away!
Something interesting on German radar here.

 

[eltf177]

Something here, seems both Brits and Germans were onto it at the same time but neighter side wanted to give it away!
Something interesting on German radar here.

Thank you for that. I remember reading this somewhere but was still looking for it.

Chuck Mandus - I wondered about that myself. I know there were 2 chains, low-level and high-level; working on different wavelengths. I remeber reading that about 1939 the Germans sent the Graf Zeppelin out with equipment to get detailed information on the UK radar. The RAF suspected this was the case and kept the stations off, thus the Germans got no information.

 

[Archibald]

Can't imagine a windows XP Spitfire. Imagine, the english pilot has its finger on the trigger, ready to shoot down the bloody 109s, and suddendly the system ask "do you really want to fire your 0.50 ?" before shutting down...

Couldn't resist.

 

[Jozon]

Can't imagine a windows XP Spitfire. Imagine, the english pilot has its finger on the trigger, ready to shoot down the bloody 109s, and suddendly the system ask "do you really want to fire your 0.50 ?" before shutting down...

Couldn't resist.

Actually, it would ask if the pilot really wanted to fire his 0.303's.

And of course, even if he'd want to, the guns would freeze. His only chance of getting them running again would be to simultaneously lower his gear, open the canopy, and press the bomb release.