Windmills in ancient Greece and Rome?

Hello,

I started a thread in 2012 abourt Roman windmills. I would like to start a new thread about the same topic. I am aware of Heron's description, but my questions go beyond that. Below I have gathered quotations from different internet sources. My questions to you:

1. How reliable is it that the ancient Greeks and Romans had some kind of windmills, if only in low numbers?

2. Do you have any other sources or quotations to support the existence of windmills in the Greek civilization and/or Roman Empire?

Some scholars believe windmills were used in Ancient Greece and Rome,
though definitive proof has been hard to find. One very early windmill is described by Hero of Alexandria (who lived around A.D. 60). This machine was designed to drive the bellows for an organ, but was probably meant as a novelty.
http://www.ehow.com/facts_7403115_origin-windmill_.html

The power supply for the wind-driven organ relies on the transfer of motion
from the “broad arms like the sails of a wind-mill” to the piston mechanism.
http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/greekautomata.htm

Windmills and waterwheels were not new technologies – both machines appeared already in Antiquity and the ones used in the early Middle Ages were technically no different from those.
However, ancient civilisations like the Greeks and the Romans hardly used them,
possibly because of religious reasons and because of a large enough reservoir of human slave labour.
http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/10/history-of-industrial-windmills.html

Windmills with sail-cloth blades were used by the ancient Romans and Persians.
http://bryceblack.com/category/lotec/

Roman engineering advances include water mills, windmills, rotary mills,
water-carrying aqueducts, sewer systems and cement that hardened under water.
http://factsanddetails.com/world/cat56/sub369/item2053.html

Windmills were introduced in the Roman Empire around 250 AD.
http://centurionenergy.net/wind-turbine-history

/…/without any real industry or much agricultural machinery to work the land
—Roman land-owners [in the 3rd century] did know about water wheels and windmills but archaeologists have found evidence of very few being used in this period—the aristocrats of late Rome apparently watched the collapse of their economy and disdained practical matters such as retooling their farms to ensure their viability.
http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320hist&Civ/chapters/08ROMFAL.htm


Regards,

Jan
 
1. How reliable is it that the ancient Greeks and Romans had some kind of windmills, if only in low numbers?
It's in some sort of grey zone : It's not impossible, but there is simply no archeological or written source (that I'm aware of that is), contrary to watermills.

One very early windmill is described by Hero of Alexandria (who lived around A.D. 60). This machine was designed to drive the bellows for an organ, but was probably meant as a novelty.
That, and a demonstration of Hiero's theories. More or less as someone building something close to nuclear reactor only to point out nuclear reaction.

Given the lack of practical use of Hiero's demonstrations IOTL, I don't think that could point alone the presence of vertical windmills in Ancient Rome.

However, ancient civilisations like the Greeks and the Romans hardly used them, possibly because of religious reasons and because of a large enough reservoir of human slave labour.
It seems they used it more importantly than we tought 10 years ago (or me two years ago, if you remember the old thread :p): their use seems to have been essentially tied to either latifundar (large eastates) production and to centers of consummation.
I wonder if their presence there couldn't be tied with the relative absence of latifundar production, as in southern Gaul.

The decline of use should be, rather than "D0rk Ages of religion and slavery" (We're still to see disuse of technology because "God told so" in Late Antiquity, and slavery never was a large part of agricultural production in Gaul where the largest mill infrastructure was found).

- Demographical crisis due to plague : with less people to feed, especially in former concentrated zones (as towns), mills may have been too much of an investment
- Decentralized production. With the passage of latifundar economy to something where the landowner gave part of the land to clientelized peasants, the revenues took more importance than trade.
- Decline of long-range trade for more local markets (especially true after the Vth).

I'm particularly wary about the "lack of manpower" reason, giving this lack was exactly one of the reason of the mechanisation of Gallic fields (with the harvester)

Windmills were introduced in the Roman Empire around 250 AD.
...
Windmills with sail-cloth blades were used by the ancient Romans and Persians.

Such affirmation can difficultly avoid proofs.
I'm not against the idea per se (though I suspect it would be essentially located to oriental provinces) but that's not sourced.

The late link you give seems particularly...backwards when it comes to Late Antiquity economics. As in "DECADANCE!" as much louder than a Cinecitta production.
Seriously, there's much to say but basically : I'm not quite sure it's trustworthy (for somone that is not from 50's that is) with gems like this.

But like the truant step-children they were, the barbarians remained disobedient

The more interesting link I found is this Historical development of windmill, but dates from 90.
 
I have heard that there are ancient place names in Greece or the Mediterranean world which hint to the former existence of windmills there.

Is that correct?

If yes, what are some of those place names?
 
It's in some sort of grey zone : It's not impossible, but there is simply no archeological or written source (that I'm aware of that is), contrary to watermills.

Further, windmills only pop up in Byzantine sources during the medieval period.

- Demographical crisis due to plague : with less people to feed, especially in former concentrated zones (as towns), mills may have been too much of an investment

Although I'd note that they were common enough to be mentioned in Roman price controls, which IMO is suggestive. I basically agree with you.
 
I have heard that there are ancient place names in Greece or the Mediterranean world which hint to the former existence of windmills there.
Never heard of this, but it doesn't mean it didn't exist.
Still, as it's something quite different than the previous theory (aka, windmills appeared in the VIIth century in Persia and widespread in Europe later trough Byzantine or Arab influence), and would ask more than simple affirmation.
I'm tempted to ask you the same : have you some place names we could check about? :eek:

Although I'd note that they were common enough to be mentioned in Roman price controls, which IMO is suggestive. I basically agree with you.

I may make an unfitting comparison there, due to being more experimented with later documents, but it makes me thing of these medieval inland cities that had toll prices for everything including dolphins, just to be sure that if one day someone would try to pass the bridge with one, they'd not be crooked out of their money.

I don't think that, similarly, Roman fiscal bureaucracy would have tolerated to be "crooked out of their money" either, and may have listed everything it could reasonably have (including a lion if I remember it correctly).

Of course, I don't say that all watermills ceased to exist before Diocletian. But it's significative that many ceased to function in a period between the early IIIrd century (Barbegal) up to mid-VIth century (Janiculum), that fit in a series of crises.

And if we don't to indulge into an Hollywoodesque vision of Late Roman Empire, the epidemics that ravaged Romania since the Antonine Plague up to Justinian plague, the demographical decline, and decline of centralised production and long-range markets that were important issues for other situation may have played a role there as well.
 
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