William the Lion

William the Lion of Scotland is given the title of Earl of Northumbria. How can he keep? Maybe butterfly away Henry 2nd for a weaker person>

If Scotland does hold it what is the effect, if they can hold it for that long anyway.
 
D. not think that the success of William the Lion in securing Northumbria could butterfly Henry II away. His succession was guaranteed. The problem with Henry is that he was immensly popular in both Englands and France at the time, and as he has most of Northern France under his control and unless Stephen manages to ensure his son to the succession Henry will still be the main contender to the throne of England.
You would actually have to butterfly Henry away completely before 1150.
 
Besides from the obvious reason, that a foreign monarch who also holds lands as a vassal in your realm can be difficult and even annoying, Henry II of England certainly knew that, because he held that position in France;), were there other reasons for Henry II to deprive William from that title?
 
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D. not think that the success of William the Lion in securing Northumbria could butterfly Henry II away. His succession was guaranteed. The problem with Henry is that he was immensly popular in both Englands and France at the time, and as he has most of Northern France under his control and unless Stephen manages to ensure his son to the succession Henry will still be the main contender to the throne of England.
You would actually have to butterfly Henry away completely before 1150.

Yes butterfly Henry away with someone less competent.
 
Besides from the obvious reason, that a foreign monarch who also holds lands as a vassal in your realm can be difficult and even annoying, Henry II of England certainly knew that, because he held that position in France;), were there other reasons for Henry II to deprive William from that title?

Well i have no idea why William even got the title and why he was kicked off, not much information on it i'd say.
 
That's what the OP states.
Practically i think that that is impossible. Hell, i don't even want to think of it too much. Love Henry II and all those Plantagenets.

Lol well im not that sure they could hold it for that long unless England gets more distracted with other things and maybe Scots kings start to go down to be based around Northumbria more if they keep it.
 
Well i have no idea why William even got the title and why he was kicked off, not much information on it i'd say.

I know that William the Lion inherited the title from his brother Henry of Scotland and that it was king David of Scotland, who 'convinced' king Stephan of England to grant the title to Henry of Scotland, who was a grandson and heir of a previous earl of Northumbria.
However I still don't know why William the Lion lost that title.
 
William had to give it up to Henry II in 1157. Something about paying Homage to lands in England. Given that Northumbria is always an boundary issue between England and Scotland it was probably inevitable. I actually think that Henry installed William as the heir to the Earldom of Northumberland after, though only for a little while before it was officially given to the Percy family.
 
It really depends on how strong or unified Scotland is at the time. If they can enforce the claim or not to northumbria is dependent on this. If there was a weaker English King, then yes, i would suspect that the territory would remain in scottish hands.
 
But would it be in Scottish hands? The king of Scotland would have been earl of Northumbria (and Huntingdon) in England in the same way as king Henry II of England was duke of Normandy and count of Anjou in France.
 
Sounds like your usual cross-kingdom thing to me.

This isn't Crusader Kings (where being a king means you can't also be a vassal as holder of something in someone else's kingdom).
 

yourworstnightmare

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But would it be in Scottish hands? The king of Scotland would have been earl of Northumbria (and Huntingdon) in England in the same way as king Henry II of England was duke of Normandy and count of Anjou in France.
Pretty much, he would be an English vassal for his English holdings, while being a sovereign king in Scotland.
 
That scottish have always claimed that territory. He may be a scottish vassal of the English King, but still, with the OP states that if you butterfly away Henry II as king, and he is replaced with, hypothetically, Stephen's son, who for all we know could be incompetent, and considering the situation at the time with the war between Matilda and Stephen, they could successfully conquer Northumbria and actually take it away from the English.
 
Perhaps if we give Malcolm IV a longer healthier life Henry would prefer to maintain his brother William as Earl as a buffer against Malcolm?
Especially if we give Malcolm a son.

Then have both Malcolm and his son die so Earl William becomes King.
 
That scottish have always claimed that territory. He may be a scottish vassal of the English King, but still, with the OP states that if you butterfly away Henry II as king, and he is replaced with, hypothetically, Stephen's son, who for all we know could be incompetent, and considering the situation at the time with the war between Matilda and Stephen, they could successfully conquer Northumbria and actually take it away from the English.

If the king of Scotland already is earl of Northumbria in England then he wouldn't have to conquer it. Besides an invasion is exactly the kind of action, which will even have a weak English king react against this invasion and take away the earldom.
The better tactic IMHO would be to keep Scotland and Northumbria in a de jure personal union.
 
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