William son of Henry the Young King survives

William, was the son of Henry the Young King, himself the son of Henry II, and his wife Margaret of France daughter of King Louis VII.

William was born in 1177 and died that same year, leaving his father without an heir, his father consequently died in 1183 during a rebellion against Henry II.

What I am wondering is what consequences might there be if William did not die in 1177 and was still alive when his father rebelled? Now obviously Henry the Young might not be trying to annul his marriage to Margaret, but what else might change? Would Henry still die as he did in 1183, or would he live on succeeding his father?
 
Assuming his survival does not butterfly Henry the Young's death nor subsequent events too much, then when Henry II dies, William is c12 and near age enough to be declared King over Richard (albeit under short regency)
Almost certainly he'll be Duke of Normandy.
 
Assuming his survival does not butterfly Henry the Young's death nor subsequent events too much, then when Henry II dies, William is c12 and near age enough to be declared King over Richard (albeit under short regency)
Almost certainly he'll be Duke of Normandy.

Question: Doesn't Norman England and Normandy,at least initially,practice proximity of blood over the principle of primogeniture?Or would young William ascend to the throne over Richard due to the argument that his father had been crowned king during the lifetime of Henry II?Or would Henry II,trying to avoid a messy succession due to the aforementioned problems try and crown young William during his lifetime as well?
 
Assuming his survival does not butterfly Henry the Young's death nor subsequent events too much, then when Henry II dies, William is c12 and near age enough to be declared King over Richard (albeit under short regency)
Almost certainly he'll be Duke of Normandy.

Interesting, so who might be William's regent or on his regency council?

Question: Doesn't Norman England and Normandy,at least initially,practice proximity of blood over the principle of primogeniture?Or would young William ascend to the throne over Richard due to the argument that his father had been crowned king during the lifetime of Henry II?Or would Henry II,trying to avoid a messy succession due to the aforementioned problems try and crown young William during his lifetime as well?

Hmm, I think it varied would it not? Though I suppose it depended on the value they placed on the inheritance
 
Interesting, so who might be William's regent or on his regency council?



Hmm, I think it varied would it not? Though I suppose it depended on the value they placed on the inheritance

Not in Normandy and England at least.That's how John took over.If John could do it,Richard might try something similar.
 
Interesting, so who might be William's regent or on his regency council?
Richard, John, and possibly his mother.

Question: Doesn't Norman England and Normandy,at least initially,practice proximity of blood over the principle of primogeniture?Or would young William ascend to the throne over Richard due to the argument that his father had been crowned king during the lifetime of Henry II?Or would Henry II,trying to avoid a messy succession due to the aforementioned problems try and crown young William during his lifetime as well?
Hmm, I think it varied would it not? Though I suppose it depended on the value they placed on the inheritance
Definitely varied. A lot will depend on what oaths Henry II extracts from his sons and vassals and William himself.
12 is close enough to the majority of 14 that I think he'll be accepted as Duke of Normandy.
Whether the English would prefer Richard as King will depend on circumstances, however I expect William to have been included in Henry's reshuffle following the Young Henry's death. I expect without being able to secure either Aquitaine or Normandy for John he'll aim for an Irish Crown
 
Richard, John, and possibly his mother.



Definitely varied. A lot will depend on what oaths Henry II extracts from his sons and vassals and William himself.
12 is close enough to the majority of 14 that I think he'll be accepted as Duke of Normandy.
Whether the English would prefer Richard as King will depend on circumstances, however I expect William to have been included in Henry's reshuffle following the Young Henry's death. I expect without being able to secure either Aquitaine or Normandy for John he'll aim for an Irish Crown

Interesting, would either of his uncles rebel against him once crowned?

And also, say the Yung King does not die in 1183, what happens then?
 
Interesting, so who might be William's regent or on his regency council?



Hmm, I think it varied would it not? Though I suppose it depended on the value they placed on the inheritance

Undoubtably William Marshall would be involved as one of the Young Kings staunchest retainers, probably over John.
 
Undoubtably William Marshall would be involved as one of the Young Kings staunchest retainers, probably over John.

Interesting, very interesting.

Now what would be mroe interesting, seeing the Young King remain alive, or seeing his son reign as King with powerful uncles with aspirations of their own around him?
 
Interesting, very interesting.

Now what would be mroe interesting, seeing the Young King remain alive, or seeing his son reign as King with powerful uncles with aspirations of their own around him?

Powerful uncles would, undoubtably, hive off those elements of the "Empire" that they were closest to - Richard would undoubtably take Acquitaine as Duke, John would look to forment revolt in Normandy, and a regency council led by Marshall would look to stop them - I would expect successfully wrt John, much less so wrt Richard.

I think the same would happen with Henry TYK, but John would be less successful - Henry had an established power base in Normandy.

Also, the impact of Eleanor of Acquitine can't be overstated. She'd certainly support Richard, as she was setting him up as Duke from an early age, and her relationship with TYK was good - she would probably have supported him or her grandson over John.
 
Powerful uncles would, undoubtably, hive off those elements of the "Empire" that they were closest to - Richard would undoubtably take Acquitaine as Duke, John would look to forment revolt in Normandy, and a regency council led by Marshall would look to stop them - I would expect successfully wrt John, much less so wrt Richard.

I think the same would happen with Henry TYK, but John would be less successful - Henry had an established power base in Normandy.

Also, the impact of Eleanor of Acquitine can't be overstated. She'd certainly support Richard, as she was setting him up as Duke from an early age, and her relationship with TYK was good - she would probably have supported him or her grandson over John.

Interesting, so in either case John is going to be the trouble maker?

And what of Geoffrey? If he does not die during that tourney accident, let's say it is butterflied away, what consequences might this have for the reign of William or even his father?
 
Interesting, so in either case John is going to be the trouble maker?

And what of Geoffrey? If he does not die during that tourney accident, let's say it is butterflied away, what consequences might this have for the reign of William or even his father?

Well, first it would increase the pressure even more on Henry to provide for John. So I expect we could see John given Ireland and the Pope pressured again for a crown.
So we have Richard as Duke of Aquitaine, Geoffrey Duke of Brittany, John King of Ireland, William Duke of Normandy.
Flashpoints will be Anjou-Maine-Touraine initially promised to Young Henry, and the Earldom of Cornwall that was given to John.
John will certainly interfere in Wales and Richard and Geoffrey likely in AMT.
 
Well, first it would increase the pressure even more on Henry to provide for John. So I expect we could see John given Ireland and the Pope pressured again for a crown.
So we have Richard as Duke of Aquitaine, Geoffrey Duke of Brittany, John King of Ireland, William Duke of Normandy.
Flashpoints will be Anjou-Maine-Touraine initially promised to Young Henry, and the Earldom of Cornwall that was given to John.
John will certainly interfere in Wales and Richard and Geoffrey likely in AMT.

Interesting and with the French kings poking and prodding around, would William at some point simply decide that he needs to declare himself and those territories under his uncles rule as owing fealty to him not Paris?
 
Interesting and with the French kings poking and prodding around, would William at some point simply decide that he needs to declare himself and those territories under his uncles rule as owing fealty to him not Paris?

Not unless he has support from his French vassals - who have the right to go above him to his liege if he is failing his liegelord obligations - the Church or has overwhelming military support to do so.
While Brittany's status was initially more personal homage than fealty, Normandy, AMT, and Aquitaine were all confirmed as owing fealty to the King of France and could not be broken lightly.
Think of it as a contract held by your liege that can be bought, sold, and updated but not broken without penalty.
 
Not unless he has support from his French vassals - who have the right to go above him to his liege if he is failing his liegelord obligations - the Church or has overwhelming military support to do so.
While Brittany's status was initially more personal homage than fealty, Normandy, AMT, and Aquitaine were all confirmed as owing fealty to the King of France and could not be broken lightly.
Think of it as a contract held by your liege that can be bought, sold, and updated but not broken without penalty.

More like his uncles won't buy it.If his uncles had any real sense of family,they wouldn't have been rebelling left and right either against their father or against their brother.They would have preferred a weaker overlord than one who would be powerful.
 
Not unless he has support from his French vassals - who have the right to go above him to his liege if he is failing his liegelord obligations - the Church or has overwhelming military support to do so.
While Brittany's status was initially more personal homage than fealty, Normandy, AMT, and Aquitaine were all confirmed as owing fealty to the King of France and could not be broken lightly.
Think of it as a contract held by your liege that can be bought, sold, and updated but not broken without penalty.

Hmm interesting, so I am sensing a similar hundred years war to the first one this time around? With Philip II perhaps nudging the uncles into saying why should they swear fealty to a child sort of thing

More like his uncles won't buy it.If his uncles had any real sense of family,they wouldn't have been rebelling left and right either against their father or against their brother.They would have preferred a weaker overlord than one who would be powerful.
Hmm indeed, a probelm with the early Angevin Dynasty most definitely
 
Question: Doesn't Norman England and Normandy,at least initially,practice proximity of blood over the principle of primogeniture?Or would young William ascend to the throne over Richard due to the argument that his father had been crowned king during the lifetime of Henry II?Or would Henry II,trying to avoid a messy succession due to the aforementioned problems try and crown young William during his lifetime as well?

England was essentially an elective monarchy until around Henry III, it was Richard that named John his heir over Arthur.
 
So let's say that William son of Henry the Young King survives and lives, one small butterfly being that his uncle Geoffrey survives the jousting accident that had him killed in 1186, following Henry II's death in 1189, William is crowned King of England as William III, and is officially recognised by his uncles and Philip II as Duke of Normandy and Count of Anjou, Maine and Touraine, what happens then?
 
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