William IV of Britain's daughter Elizabeth survives.

That does make sense, so likely either Uncle Ferdinand or Franz Karl will be arranging the marriage. Since the latter appears to be a "go along to get along" type he likely will, within reason, defer to his wife, son, and family as to who Franz Josef will marry. So while he (and the rest of the court) would probably veto a Sissi type, the real infighting will be between Austrian cousins and Bavarian sisters-in-law who'd like to see their daughters become Empress plus a couple Bourbon candidates from France, Spain, and Italy.
This is very true, which leads me to ask what would Franz Karl be like as an emperor.
 
This is very true, which leads me to ask what would Franz Karl be like as an emperor.

With regards to his son's marriage, his unambitious attitude could result in three scenarios:
  1. He just wants Franz Josef to get married and, as long as she isn't completely unsuitable to the Austrian court, doesn't particularly care as to who the bride is. So he has the court pre-vet the candidates (& thus removing Sissi types), gives his son pictures of the remaining women and lets him pick whichever one he likes best to be his bride.
  2. He wants to avoid family conflict between his cousins in Austria and his wife's sisters and his wife, who isn't as ambitious as her twin IOTL, isn't going to die on a hill to get a niece as Crown Princess (the only girl she would have pushed for was a daughter of her twin sister Sophie, but said daughter either doesn't exist or isn't the right age for Franz Josef). So they decide on a Bourbon candidate, both so they don't have to hear more bickering and as part of an alliance to combat any potential OTL-esque land grabs by Prussia
  3. He wants the process to be over quickly, asks the court to decide on a favorite candidate and tells Franz Josef to take one for team Habsburg and marry whoever is selected.
In the latter two scenarios, I could see the court angling for Louise Elisabeth as part of an anti-Prussia alliance, provided that she'd fit in with the Austrian court. If not that, maybe a Saxon match with one of Maria Anna's nieces as part of a Catholic German coalition to oppose Prussia if they try to unite Germany through force?
 
With regards to his son's marriage, his unambitious attitude could result in three scenarios:
  1. He just wants Franz Josef to get married and, as long as she isn't completely unsuitable to the Austrian court, doesn't particularly care as to who the bride is. So he has the court pre-vet the candidates (& thus removing Sissi types), gives his son pictures of the remaining women and lets him pick whichever one he likes best to be his bride.
  2. He wants to avoid family conflict between his cousins in Austria and his wife's sisters and his wife, who isn't as ambitious as her twin IOTL, isn't going to die on a hill to get a niece as Crown Princess (the only girl she would have pushed for was a daughter of her twin sister Sophie, but said daughter either doesn't exist or isn't the right age for Franz Josef). So they decide on a Bourbon candidate, both so they don't have to hear more bickering and as part of an alliance to combat any potential OTL-esque land grabs by Prussia
  3. He wants the process to be over quickly, asks the court to decide on a favorite candidate and tells Franz Josef to take one for team Habsburg and marry whoever is selected.
In the latter two scenarios, I could see the court angling for Louise Elisabeth as part of an anti-Prussia alliance, provided that she'd fit in with the Austrian court. If not that, maybe a Saxon match with one of Maria Anna's nieces as part of a Catholic German coalition to oppose Prussia if they try to unite Germany through force?

Hmm interesting, I'm favouring Louise Elisabeth myself. From how I imagine her and this version of Franz, I think they'd get on quite well.

Also, otl Franz Karl lived till 1875 I think, but given the strain of being emperor perhap's he'd die a lot sooner than that? Somewhere around the late 1850s?
 
Hmm interesting, I'm favouring Louise Elisabeth myself. From how I imagine her and this version of Franz, I think they'd get on quite well.

Also, otl Franz Karl lived till 1875 I think, but given the strain of being emperor perhap's he'd die a lot sooner than that? Somewhere around the late 1850s?
Maybe somewhere around 1863-ish, he'd be about 61 which, given he had some decently long-lived ancestors, wouldn't be a bad date. If you want, you could have his health decline at the end of the 1850s-early 1860s, causing him to hand more and more of his duties to Franz Josef, so that when Franz Karl finally croaks Franz Josef has been settled and prepared for his role as Emperor.
 
Maybe somewhere around 1863-ish, he'd be about 61 which, given he had some decently long-lived ancestors, wouldn't be a bad date. If you want, you could have his health decline at the end of the 1850s-early 1860s, causing him to hand more and more of his duties to Franz Josef, so that when Franz Karl finally croaks Franz Josef has been settled and prepared for his role as Emperor.
I think that sounds good and with franz Josef being thirty one he’d have perhaps four kids at this point to secure the succession, two sons and two daughters. The battle for Germany will be the big issue of his early reign.
 
I think that sounds good and with franz Josef being thirty one he’d have perhaps four kids at this point to secure the succession, two sons and two daughters. The battle for Germany will be the big issue of his early reign.

Yep, for the sake of this TL let's assume that Charles decides to marry off Louise Elisabeth at 18 in 1852. Meaning by 1861, the pair have been married 9 years with the following kids
  1. Crown Prince Karl b.1853
  2. Archduchess Gisela b.1854
  3. Archduke Rudolf b.1857
  4. Archduchess Valerie b.1861
I decided to go with the names of Franz Josef's OTL children (with the exception of Karl) since I can't find a particular Sissi based reason for the names, so let's say Alt. Franz Josef and his OTL counterpart have similar taste in baby names.

By the time Franz Josef ascends to the throne, he has an heir and a spare, a daughter to marry off and another one on the way. Plus in 1861 the new Empress is only 27 meaning, if the relationship doesn't sour, she has around 13 years left to produce more archdukes and archduchesses. Here's one possibility based on a random draw I did
  • Archduke Franz (b. 1869 dies in childhood)
  • Archduke Maximilian (b. 1869)
  • Archduke Ferdinand (b. 1870)
  • Archduke Josef (b.1872)
Let's explain away the 8-year gap between Valerie and the twins as due to Franz Josef taking the throne and dealing with the Germany/Prussia problem giving him less time to (literally) screw around. Obviously, Louise Elisabeth will win popularity in Vienna by producing 5 healthy archdukes in addition to her two daughters, but her political leanings will also be important. IOTL Franz Josef was a conservative while Sissi, and later Rudolf, were more liberal. Given Maria Anna probably won't be taking the children from their mother as Sophie did, she will have a greater influence on her son's upbringing then Sissi had
 
Yep, for the sake of this TL let's assume that Charles decides to marry off Louise Elisabeth at 18 in 1852. Meaning by 1861, the pair have been married 9 years with the following kids
  1. Crown Prince Karl b.1853
  2. Archduchess Gisela b.1854
  3. Archduke Rudolf b.1857
  4. Archduchess Valerie b.1861
I decided to go with the names of Franz Josef's OTL children (with the exception of Karl) since I can't find a particular Sissi based reason for the names, so let's say Alt. Franz Josef and his OTL counterpart have similar taste in baby names.

By the time Franz Josef ascends to the throne, he has an heir and a spare, a daughter to marry off and another one on the way. Plus in 1861 the new Empress is only 27 meaning, if the relationship doesn't sour, she has around 13 years left to produce more archdukes and archduchesses. Here's one possibility based on a random draw I did
  • Archduke Franz (b. 1869 dies in childhood)
  • Archduke Maximilian (b. 1869)
  • Archduke Ferdinand (b. 1870)
  • Archduke Josef (b.1872)
Let's explain away the 8-year gap between Valerie and the twins as due to Franz Josef taking the throne and dealing with the Germany/Prussia problem giving him less time to (literally) screw around. Obviously, Louise Elisabeth will win popularity in Vienna by producing 5 healthy archdukes in addition to her two daughters, but her political leanings will also be important. IOTL Franz Josef was a conservative while Sissi, and later Rudolf, were more liberal. Given Maria Anna probably won't be taking the children from their mother as Sophie did, she will have a greater influence on her son's upbringing then Sissi had

I like it. I can see Louise being somewhat liberal as her fsther was, but liberal on the sense that she wants her husband to have a paternal bond with his subjects. This Franz Josef i see perhaps sharing a similar view, of that makes sense?
 
Yep, for the sake of this TL let's assume that Charles decides to marry off Louise Elisabeth at 18 in 1852. Meaning by 1861, the pair have been married 9 years with the following kids
  1. Crown Prince Karl b.1853
  2. Archduchess Gisela b.1854
  3. Archduke Rudolf b.1857
  4. Archduchess Valerie b.1861
I decided to go with the names of Franz Josef's OTL children (with the exception of Karl) since I can't find a particular Sissi based reason for the names, so let's say Alt. Franz Josef and his OTL counterpart have similar taste in baby names.

By the time Franz Josef ascends to the throne, he has an heir and a spare, a daughter to marry off and another one on the way. Plus in 1861 the new Empress is only 27 meaning, if the relationship doesn't sour, she has around 13 years left to produce more archdukes and archduchesses. Here's one possibility based on a random draw I did
  • Archduke Franz (b. 1869 dies in childhood)
  • Archduke Maximilian (b. 1869)
  • Archduke Ferdinand (b. 1870)
  • Archduke Josef (b.1872)
Let's explain away the 8-year gap between Valerie and the twins as due to Franz Josef taking the throne and dealing with the Germany/Prussia problem giving him less time to (literally) screw around. Obviously, Louise Elisabeth will win popularity in Vienna by producing 5 healthy archdukes in addition to her two daughters, but her political leanings will also be important. IOTL Franz Josef was a conservative while Sissi, and later Rudolf, were more liberal. Given Maria Anna probably won't be taking the children from their mother as Sophie did, she will have a greater influence on her son's upbringing then Sissi had
No way the eldest daughter is not named after her paternal grandmother as OTL...
 
Would she be though? Given Sophie's overbearing parenting style I could understand it otl, but here?
Yes. That was a tradition for the Habsburg-Lorraine:
almost all the children of Maria Theresa (Joseph, Leopold and Ferdinand plus their sisters Marie Caroline of Naples and Marie Antoinette of France. Christine of Teschen had not children, Maria Amalia of Parma hated her mother and their other siblings never married) called their eldest daughter Maria Theresa and Franz II/I called both his eldest daughters (the short lived child he had from Elisabeth of Württemberg was called Ludovika Elisabeth and his eldest daughter by Maria Theresa of Naples and wife of Napoleon was called Maria Ludovika/Marie Louise) after his mother Maria Luisa/Maria Ludovika so... The only acceptable alternatives to naming the eldest daughter after her paternal grandmother are naming her for either her maternal grandmother or her mother so...
 
Yes. That was a tradition for the Habsburg-Lorraine:
almost all the children of Maria Theresa (Joseph, Leopold and Ferdinand plus their sisters Marie Caroline of Naples and Marie Antoinette of France. Christine of Teschen had not children, Maria Amalia of Parma hated her mother and their other siblings never married) called their eldest daughter Maria Theresa and Franz II/I called both his eldest daughters (the short lived child he had from Elisabeth of Württemberg was called Ludovika Elisabeth and his eldest daughter by Maria Theresa of Naples and wife of Napoleon was called Maria Ludovika/Marie Louise) after his mother Maria Luisa/Maria Ludovika so... The only acceptable alternatives to naming the eldest daughter after her paternal grandmother are naming her for either her maternal grandmother or her mother so...

Alright interesting, so likely it would be Maria Anna of Austria then
 
Hmm, so to surmise the changes we have so far:

Elizabeth of Clarence surviving, and succeeding her father as Queen, marrying her cousin, the 3rd Duke of Gloucester and Edinburgh and having issue. Her uncle Edward has twins, George and Victoria.

Ferdinand VII of Spain having three sons and a daughter, by two wives.

Pedro I of Brazil and IV of Portugal having two surviving sons and four surviving daughters, his eldest son inherits Portugal, second inherits Brazil.

Archduke Karl becomes Emperor after his brother Ferdinand's death in 1848, having married Maria Anna of Bavaria before then, their son Franz Josef becomes Emperor in 1861 after marrying Louise Elisabeth of France, daughter of Charles X of France.

Charles comte Artois dies in 1824, and his son Louis succeeds Louis XVIII as King Louis XIX of France, Charles Duke of Berry does not die in 1820, and instead survives and has more children, including the future Empress of Austria, he ascends the throne in 1844 after his brother's death, as King Charles X of France. He is succeeded by his son Henri V.

Denmark's succession is cleared by Prince Ferdinand of Denmark having sons with his wife and cousin, he inherits the throne in 1863 after the death of Frederick VIII, reigning for a year and a half before his son also named Ferdinand takes over.

Sweden: Carl XV's son survives and succeeds him.

Norway: Breaks away from Sweden in 1840, and becomes a independent Kingdom ruled by Georg, Duke of Mecklenburg Strelitz.

Greece is ruled by Leopold of Saxe Coburg Gotha, he marries Marie, daughter of Nicholas I, and their line rules Greece.

Belgium is fought over in the independence war, and then again following the failure for a definitive solution-possible implementation of Talleyrand plan after this second war.

Marriages:

Liz II to Henry, 3rd Duke of Gloucester and Edinburgh

Victoria to Albert of Saxe Coburg Gotha

George V of Hanover to a Russian Princess

Marie of Portugal to Ferdinand of Saxe Coburg Gotha

Leopold to Marie of Russia

Emperor Karl I to Maria Anna of Bavaria

Franz Josef to Louise Elisabeth of France

William V of Britain to Marie fo the Netherlands

Edward of Saxe Coburg Gotha to Elizabeth of Wied.

Adelaide to Frederick III of Germany

-------

If there's anyone else or anything else I've forgotten lpease feel free to add.
 
If George V is marrying a Russian princess, it's likely Olga Nikolaevna (b. 1822), thus butterflying away her marriage to the (likely gay) King of Wurttemberg
 
Agreed there. Which means the Brits and the Hanoverians might be on better terms also

Here's a potential kid list for Olga and George with bold meaning survived childhood
  1. Prince George (b. 1842)
  2. Princess Victoria (b. 1842)
  3. Prince Edward (b. 1843)
  4. Princess Alexandra (b. 1849)
  5. Princess Olga (b. 1855)
  6. Prince Nicholas (b. 1858)
  7. Prince Frederick (b. 1859)
Depending on when Prince George dies, the succession will be precarious for the 15 years between the births of Prince Edward and Prince Nicholas. As such I could see Uncle Cumberland, and later his son, staying in Hanover, or at least meddling in its affairs, on the chance Prince Edward doesn't have kids and (as this would be before the birth of his two younger brothers) they might ascend to the throne. Of course, once Nicholas and Frederick pop out and seem healthy the whole point becomes moot, but still, shenanigans abound.

Also, I could see Victoria angling for her nephew Edward to marry one of her girls (if we're going with close to OTL children, then an ATL Alice or Helena) meaning she might unintentionally give her nephew a bride carrying hemophilia. Meaning Edward's much younger brothers might come in handy as, if Edward's boys die young from either complications related to their hemophilia or unrelated illnesses and accidents, we might end up seeing a King Nicholas of Hanover.
 
Didn't we consider a Russian match for Crown Prince Constantine of Greece, but that was when Dad was marrying a French princess - so will Constantine go towards a French match?

And will Francis of Modena end up duking (pun intended) it out for power with Otto in Belgium?
 
Hmm, so to surmise the changes we have so far:

Elizabeth of Clarence surviving, and succeeding her father as Queen, marrying her cousin, the 3rd Duke of Gloucester and Edinburgh and having issue. Her uncle Edward has twins, George and Victoria.

Ferdinand VII of Spain having three sons and a daughter, by two wives.

Pedro I of Brazil and IV of Portugal having two surviving sons and four surviving daughters, his eldest son inherits Portugal, second inherits Brazil.

Archduke Karl becomes Emperor after his brother Ferdinand's death in 1848, having married Maria Anna of Bavaria before then, their son Franz Josef becomes Emperor in 1861 after marrying Louise Elisabeth of France, daughter of Charles X of France.

Charles comte Artois dies in 1824, and his son Louis succeeds Louis XVIII as King Louis XIX of France, Charles Duke of Berry does not die in 1820, and instead survives and has more children, including the future Empress of Austria, he ascends the throne in 1844 after his brother's death, as King Charles X of France. He is succeeded by his son Henri V.

Denmark's succession is cleared by Prince Ferdinand of Denmark having sons with his wife and cousin, he inherits the throne in 1863 after the death of Frederick VIII, reigning for a year and a half before his son also named Ferdinand takes over.

Sweden: Carl XV's son survives and succeeds him.

Norway: Breaks away from Sweden in 1840, and becomes a independent Kingdom ruled by Georg, Duke of Mecklenburg Strelitz.

Greece is ruled by Leopold of Saxe Coburg Gotha, he marries Marie, daughter of Nicholas I, and their line rules Greece.

Belgium is fought over in the independence war, and then again following the failure for a definitive solution-possible implementation of Talleyrand plan after this second war.

Marriages:

Liz II to Henry, 3rd Duke of Gloucester and Edinburgh

Victoria to Albert of Saxe Coburg Gotha

George V of Hanover to a Russian Princess

Marie of Portugal to Ferdinand of Saxe Coburg Gotha

Leopold to Marie of Russia

Emperor Karl I to Maria Anna of Bavaria

Franz Josef to Louise Elisabeth of France

William V of Britain to Marie fo the Netherlands

Edward of Saxe Coburg Gotha to Elizabeth of Wied.

Adelaide to Frederick III of Germany

-------

If there's anyone else or anything else I've forgotten lpease feel free to add.

Perfect for me, just Franz Karl of Austria became emperor Franz II of Austria after the abdication of his brother Ferdinand I (you called the new emperor with his second name only and talked about death and not abdication for Ferdinand I)
 
Didn't we consider a Russian match for Crown Prince Constantine of Greece, but that was when Dad was marrying a French princess - so will Constantine go towards a French match?

And will Francis of Modena end up duking (pun intended) it out for power with Otto in Belgium?

Once the royal family is solidly Orthodox, they're free to follow the Russian model of marrying women who aren't Orthodox but (at least for the future Queen) are willing to convert (see OTL Greek Queens like Sophie of Prussia, Frederika of Hanover, and Anne Marie of Denmark).

One reason for that is because the notable Orthodox options are rather thin, basically consisting of Russia and (if it still happens ITTL) Romania. As such, the Crown Prince will likely be allowed to marry a non-Orthodox Princess willing to convert, while his brothers will get a bit more leeway by saying conversion would be preferred, but not mandatory as long as the kids are raised Orthodox.

The only issue with a French match for the Crown Prince is that getting Catholic princesses to be able to convert was notoriously difficult, as shown IOTL with Helene of Orleans having her potential marriage to Prince Albert Victor thwarted by her father and the Pope refusing to let her convert until she turned 25 (at which point she would have been an old maid on the marriage market). So unless you get a dad and Pope willing to let the girl become Orthodox, getting a Catholic bride for the heir will be difficult.

However, a Catholic bride for a younger brother is doable, as seen IOTL, as brides not destined to be Crown Princesses/Queens usually had the ability to privately keep their original faith as long as they promised to raise the kids Orthodox
 
Here's a potential kid list for Olga and George with bold meaning survived childhood
  1. Prince George (b. 1842)
  2. Princess Victoria (b. 1842)
  3. Prince Edward (b. 1843)
  4. Princess Alexandra (b. 1849)
  5. Princess Olga (b. 1855)
  6. Prince Nicholas (b. 1858)
  7. Prince Frederick (b. 1859)
Depending on when Prince George dies, the succession will be precarious for the 15 years between the births of Prince Edward and Prince Nicholas. As such I could see Uncle Cumberland, and later his son, staying in Hanover, or at least meddling in its affairs, on the chance Prince Edward doesn't have kids and (as this would be before the birth of his two younger brothers) they might ascend to the throne. Of course, once Nicholas and Frederick pop out and seem healthy the whole point becomes moot, but still, shenanigans abound.

Also, I could see Victoria angling for her nephew Edward to marry one of her girls (if we're going with close to OTL children, then an ATL Alice or Helena) meaning she might unintentionally give her nephew a bride carrying hemophilia. Meaning Edward's much younger brothers might come in handy as, if Edward's boys die young from either complications related to their hemophilia or unrelated illnesses and accidents, we might end up seeing a King Nicholas of Hanover.
I like it, I can see Cumberland’s more authoritarian politics being appreciated in Hanover more than Britain. Whilst Sussex snd Cambridge are the more normal tories at home.

And agreed Edward married a daughter of Victoria would be grand.
 
Perfect for me, just Franz Karl of Austria became emperor Franz II of Austria after the abdication of his brother Ferdinand I (you called the new emperor with his second name only and talked about death and not abdication for Ferdinand I)
Ah right you are, and aye planning on having Ferdinand die in 1848 instead of abdicating.
 
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