William IV of Britain's daughter Elizabeth survives.

The most obvious comparison for them would be the example later formed by Victoria's OTL cousin Princess Mary Adelaide of Cambridge and her husband the Duke of Teck i.e. given a grace and favor apartment in KP and on the fringes of the royal scene (of course Mary Adelaide was involved in lots of charity, but she was more social than Albert-era Victoria).

However, unless we butterfly away Ernest's STD and give him legitimate children, Victoria and Albert will have to move to Coburg at some point as Albert, and by extension, their sons will be heirs to the dukedom. I doubt Victoria will give up being the first lady of Coburg for being a (relatively) poor relation in Britain, especially since she loved Germany so much.

As such she might, ala Mary Adelaide, try to push one of her daughters higher into the family by marrying them to one of Liz's sons. Particularly if we reach a "May of Teck scenario" where major foreign candidates either drop out or seem lacking and Victoria sells her girls as British enough to be popular with the bonus foreign connection of having an uncle/dad/brother as Duke of Saxe Coburg and Gotha.

If her girls don't marry a British cousin they'll likely marry German, with prospects potentially below the heights of Vicky and Alice (the future Frederick III might end up with Vicky's cousin Adelaide instead, although it depends on whether Liz and her husband share Victoria and Albert's belief that Prussia will be the leader in German unification and see marriage as key to making Germany more liberal) but above the relative nobodies chosen for Helena, Louise, and Beatrice. I could definitely see Victoria still seeing Britain as the ultimate prize and trying to pimp out one of her descendants as a consort, much to the annoyance of cousin Liz.
Agreed with you there, sax coburg gotha was pretty minimal in importance in Germany wasn’t it? I can definitely see them spending time in Britain until it becomes apparent Ernest is never having kids. And agreed, either one of her daughters marries William v or another son of Liz ii or she pitches her son for a daughter
 
Interesting, so Henry king consider, as Henry IX holding that title for his wife’s reign

Just to point out that if you do choose to go with King Consort then he wouldn't hold a regnal number - he'd be Henry, Duke of Gloucester and Edinburgh, King Consort of England.

William III counted as he was King Regnant.
 
Agreed with you there, sax coburg gotha was pretty minimal in importance in Germany wasn’t it? I can definitely see them spending time in Britain until it becomes apparent Ernest is never having kids. And agreed, either one of her daughters marries William v or another son of Liz ii or she pitches her son for a daughter

I personally think that if anyone is marrying one of Victoria's kids it will be Clarence or York. Britain has already had a domestic marriage for Elizabeth and might see marriage to an alt Vicky a waste. Bear in mind the May of Teck scenario involved several foreign candidates either turning down the offer (Alix of Hesse and Marie of Coburg) or being rejected by Victoria for not having the right qualities or being too ugly. If William is less focused on looks and/or Elizabeth less picky then many of the candidates rejected for Bertie come into play and he likely marries Alexandra or one of the rejected German candidates.

According to the astute voices of Wikipedia, the following princesses were in the running for Albert Edward and thus they, or their ATL sisters, could be potential brides for William: Marie of the Netherlands, Marie Gasparine of Saxe Altenburg, Elisabeth of Wied, Anna of Hesse Darmstadt, Alexandrine of Prussia, Alexandra of Denmark, Wilhelmine of Wurttemberg, Catherine of Oldenburg, and Augusta of Schleswig Holstein. Obviously, Alexandra will continue to be a big catch, but I could see the attempted British- Dutch match part 3 given Marie's intelligence and wealth (she was apparently rejected for being too ugly IOTL, but again maybe William won't be so looks focused?).

Based on the descriptions of the boys the best chance to have one of Victoria's girls in the royal family is to have foreign princesses find Clarence a dull navy man who's only a 3rd son and, at this point, has several nieces and nephews via Wales and York pushing him down the line of succession. With a lack of candidates and a desire to get her son married off (plus get cousin Drina off her back), Liz offers up an Alt Beatrice to be Duchess of Clarence, giving him a popular English bride without sacrificing diplomatically (nor risking the main line being populated with hemopheliacs.
 
Just to point out that if you do choose to go with King Consort then he wouldn't hold a regnal number - he'd be Henry, Duke of Gloucester and Edinburgh, King Consort of England.

William III counted as he was King Regnant.
Philip II of Spain was also King (Consort) Philip (I) of England and he was the logical model to follow and I think who if Scotland had a King Francis he would be Francis II because the first was Francis II of Franceì, plus look at the iberian countries for the use of that titles: Ferdinand II of Aragon was also Ferdinand V of Castile, Philip of Burgundy was also Philip I of Castile (and his grandson was Philip II after him), a King Francis of Spain also would be Francis II because the first was Isabella II's husband and cousin (who is better know as Duke of Cadiz but was a full King Consort), Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Kohary become King Consort as Ferdinand II of Portugal after the birth of his eldest son...
If you are a King (Regnat or Consort) you have a number, if you are are a Queen Regnant you have a number while a Queen Consort and a Prince Consort have no numbers... The difference between a King and a King Consort is just the fact who a King is King for all his life while a King Consort is King just during his wife's lifetime
 
Just to point out that if you do choose to go with King Consort then he wouldn't hold a regnal number - he'd be Henry, Duke of Gloucester and Edinburgh, King Consort of England.

William III counted as he was King Regnant.

This is true.

I personally think that if anyone is marrying one of Victoria's kids it will be Clarence or York. Britain has already had a domestic marriage for Elizabeth and might see marriage to an alt Vicky a waste. Bear in mind the May of Teck scenario involved several foreign candidates either turning down the offer (Alix of Hesse and Marie of Coburg) or being rejected by Victoria for not having the right qualities or being too ugly. If William is less focused on looks and/or Elizabeth less picky then many of the candidates rejected for Bertie come into play and he likely marries Alexandra or one of the rejected German candidates.

According to the astute voices of Wikipedia, the following princesses were in the running for Albert Edward and thus they, or their ATL sisters, could be potential brides for William: Marie of the Netherlands, Marie Gasparine of Saxe Altenburg, Elisabeth of Wied, Anna of Hesse Darmstadt, Alexandrine of Prussia, Alexandra of Denmark, Wilhelmine of Wurttemberg, Catherine of Oldenburg, and Augusta of Schleswig Holstein. Obviously, Alexandra will continue to be a big catch, but I could see the attempted British- Dutch match part 3 given Marie's intelligence and wealth (she was apparently rejected for being too ugly IOTL, but again maybe William won't be so looks focused?).

Based on the descriptions of the boys the best chance to have one of Victoria's girls in the royal family is to have foreign princesses find Clarence a dull navy man who's only a 3rd son and, at this point, has several nieces and nephews via Wales and York pushing him down the line of succession. With a lack of candidates and a desire to get her son married off (plus get cousin Drina off her back), Liz offers up an Alt Beatrice to be Duchess of Clarence, giving him a popular English bride without sacrificing diplomatically (nor risking the main line being populated with hemopheliacs.

Hmm interesting Alexandra of Denmark for William could be a great match, I think for how I picture the more active crown being here, she’d be perfect. As would Marie of the Netherlands. Wilhelmine of Wuttermburg would be good for the duke of York I think. And agreed for an alt Beatrice for duchess ofmclarence
 
The huge dowry Marie brings makes me think that she’d likely give the crown more independence from parliament, which is making me lean toward her coupled with her intelligence
 
So for William v, Marie of the Netherlands or Alexandra of Denmark?

Probably although I would personally pick Marie for maximum butterflies, particularly as if Alexandra gets rejected by the Prince of Wales she likely gets married to the Tsarevich of Russia instead of her sister Minnie (who served as a consolation prize). This might butterfly away Nicholas's death or give him an heir which means his reactionary brother Alexander never gets the throne. While it won't be a liberal utopia, Nicholas A. was more liberal than his brother and you do butterfly away OTL Nicholas II.

Plus Britain might realize Alexandra isn't the only way to a Danish match. IOTL Frederick VIII (Alexandra's brother) considered marrying Princess Helena but, as this was after Albert's death, Victoria nixed the idea in favor of a penniless prince happy to live at home in Britain. If ITTL Frederick marries Princess Sophia then we still have a Danish connection and Marie's dowry.

The best way to achieve this outcome (in my opinion) is to get Frederick's OTL wife Louise of Sweden a brother (who, ironically, would be Marie of the Netherlands' nephew). The reason the Frederick-Louise match was popular IOTL was because of Scandinavian nationalism which wanted a symbolic Swedish-Danish union. If Charles XV has an heir (either a surviving Carl Oscar, Princess Louise as a boy, or a completely new son) then we can get a Danish-Swedish match by marrying the Crown Prince of Sweden to either Dagmar or Thyra (whoever's more age appropriate). As such Denmark still gets a British, Swedish, and Russian match ITTL, just through different weddings (Frederick to Sophia of the UK, Alexandra to Nicholas of Russia, Dagmar/Thrya to prince X of Sweden) and Britain gets a Danish match and Marie's dowry.
 
This is true.



Hmm interesting Alexandra of Denmark for William could be a great match, I think for how I picture the more active crown being here, she’d be perfect. As would Marie of the Netherlands. Wilhelmine of Wuttermburg would be good for the duke of York I think. And agreed for an alt Beatrice for duchess of clarence
Alexandra and Marie are both interesting choices....
And found me an OTL King Consort who was styled King Consort and was surely without a regnal number because I can not find any as I wrote earlier to @wwbgdiaslt they were all styled as King and either had a regnal number or do not need it
 
Alexandra and Marie are both interesting choices....
And found me an OTL King Consort who was styled King Consort and was surely without a regnal number because I can not find any as I wrote earlier to @wwbgdiaslt they were all styled as King and either had a regnal number or do not need it
Does such a thing stand in British law though? Philip was the exception for England because he was also a king of a power house
 
Probably although I would personally pick Marie for maximum butterflies, particularly as if Alexandra gets rejected by the Prince of Wales she likely gets married to the Tsarevich of Russia instead of her sister Minnie (who served as a consolation prize). This might butterfly away Nicholas's death or give him an heir which means his reactionary brother Alexander never gets the throne. While it won't be a liberal utopia, Nicholas A. was more liberal than his brother and you do butterfly away OTL Nicholas II.

Plus Britain might realize Alexandra isn't the only way to a Danish match. IOTL Frederick VIII (Alexandra's brother) considered marrying Princess Helena but, as this was after Albert's death, Victoria nixed the idea in favor of a penniless prince happy to live at home in Britain. If ITTL Frederick marries Princess Sophia then we still have a Danish connection and Marie's dowry.

The best way to achieve this outcome (in my opinion) is to get Frederick's OTL wife Louise of Sweden a brother (who, ironically, would be Marie of the Netherlands' nephew). The reason the Frederick-Louise match was popular IOTL was because of Scandinavian nationalism which wanted a symbolic Swedish-Danish union. If Charles XV has an heir (either a surviving Carl Oscar, Princess Louise as a boy, or a completely new son) then we can get a Danish-Swedish match by marrying the Crown Prince of Sweden to either Dagmar or Thyra (whoever's more age appropriate). As such Denmark still gets a British, Swedish, and Russian match ITTL, just through different weddings (Frederick to Sophia of the UK, Alexandra to Nicholas of Russia, Dagmar/Thrya to prince X of Sweden) and Britain gets a Danish match and Marie's dowry.
I like it William V and Marie of the Netherlands it is then. Alexandra and Nicholas as well, combined with Frederick viii and Sophia.and a surviving Carl Oscar with whichever one of Dagmar and Thyra is age appropriate.

William and Britain are going to love Marie for her dowry, William will like her for her sharp mind
 
Does such a thing stand in British law though? Philip was the exception for England because he was also a king of a power house
Yes, I think it can stand perfectly in the British law considering who in the past husbands of heiresses held their titles jure-uxoris... In UK we have just three example of husbands of Queen Regnants who were called King and while one was a King Regnant and the other two (Philip and Francis) were Kings/heirs in their own right everything point to them being full Kings who would have their numbers if needed...
Here you have a woman who is the heiress and her popular husband who is also a close relative from their paternal side and so a full english born and english titled prince of the House of Hannover...
Who you think, considering everything, who the Parliament will acknowledge as true ruler?
 
Yes, I think it can stand perfectly in the British law considering who in the past husbands of heiresses held their titles jure-uxoris... In UK we have just three example of husbands of Queen Regnants who were called King and while one was a King Regnant and the other two (Philip and Francis) were Kings/heirs in their own right everything point to them being full Kings who would have their numbers if needed...
Here you have a woman who is the heiress and her popular husband who is also a close relative from their paternal side and so a full english born and english titled prince of the House of Hannover...
Who you think, considering everything, who the Parliament will acknowledge as true ruler?

Well Liz ii given she’s the heir of the last king aha
 
So current second generation matches appear to be:
The Prince of Wales to Princess Marie of the Netherlands
Princess Sophia of the UK to Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark
The Duke of Clarence to Princess Beatrice of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha
Princess Alexandra of Denmark and Tsarevich Nicholas of Russia
Crown Prince Carl Oscar of Sweden to Princess Thyra of Denmark (let's say butterflies and an imminent marriage keeps her relationship with Marcher unconsummated and doesn't leave her with a pregnancy, if not this could be replaced by an ATL sister between Dagmar and Thyra)

People with unknown or uncertain partners:
  1. The Duke of York
  2. Princess Adelaide of the UK (might take Vicky's place in Prussia, but that's uncertain)
  3. Victoria's children besides Beatrice (for example Bertie's not marrying Alexandra and as merely an heir presumptive to a small German duchy might not be "big" enough for Dagmar, so he might be forced to swallow his bride and marry a not so pretty German)
  4. Princess Dagmar of Denmark (her OTL fiancee has been taken by her sister and she's not going to marry her OTL husband as Denmark doesn't need two Russian matches, she's also too old for Carl Oscar and there aren't that many huge catches left. Maybe she takes Alice's place in Hesse Darmstadt or marries the Prince of Orange before he falls in love with a countess who might be his half-sister)
  5. Crown Prince Friedrich of Prussia (Vicky might be too politically insignificant to marry ITTL)
  6. Other people, I'm not currently thinking of
 
So current second generation matches appear to be:
The Prince of Wales to Princess Marie of the Netherlands
Princess Sophia of the UK to Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark
The Duke of Clarence to Princess Beatrice of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha
Princess Alexandra of Denmark and Tsarevich Nicholas of Russia
Crown Prince Carl Oscar of Sweden to Princess Thyra of Denmark (let's say butterflies and an imminent marriage keeps her relationship with Marcher unconsummated and doesn't leave her with a pregnancy, if not this could be replaced by an ATL sister between Dagmar and Thyra)

People with unknown or uncertain partners:
  1. The Duke of York
  2. Princess Adelaide of the UK (might take Vicky's place in Prussia, but that's uncertain)
  3. Victoria's children besides Beatrice (for example Bertie's not marrying Alexandra and as merely an heir presumptive to a small German duchy might not be "big" enough for Dagmar, so he might be forced to swallow his bride and marry a not so pretty German)
  4. Princess Dagmar of Denmark (her OTL fiancee has been taken by her sister and she's not going to marry her OTL husband as Denmark doesn't need two Russian matches, she's also too old for Carl Oscar and there aren't that many huge catches left. Maybe she takes Alice's place in Hesse Darmstadt or marries the Prince of Orange before he falls in love with a countess who might be his half-sister)
  5. Crown Prince Friedrich of Prussia (Vicky might be too politically insignificant to marry ITTL)
  6. Other people, I'm not currently thinking of
Looks good to me. I was thinking that Elizabeth and Henry might after the shitnwith Belgium look to ensure that prussia and Hanover remain on good terms with one another and Britain, and therefore perhaps Adelaide could marry crown prince Friederik of prussia.

Bertie could marry someone from say saxe Weimar? If they have a girl going. Would he have as many siblings?
 
Looks good to me. I was thinking that Elizabeth and Henry might after the shitnwith Belgium look to ensure that prussia and Hanover remain on good terms with one another and Britain, and therefore perhaps Adelaide could marry crown prince Friederik of prussia.

Bertie could marry someone from say saxe Weimar? If they have a girl going. Would he have as many siblings?

If Victoria and Albert keep going at it like rabbits they might. The children might not have the same survival rate, but Victoria and Albert's sex life seems destined for many pregnancies.

As for Saxe Weimar, two of the Saxe Weimar Eisenach girls were considered for Bertie IOTL however they're both a bit young (if we go with an 1841 DOB for Bertie then major candidates Marie and Pauline are 8 and 11 years younger respectively) and the elder of the two was described as having black teeth and being a bit ugly. He likely gets one of the lower level girls proposed for him.

Looking at the rejected candidates (excluding Alexandra of Denmark and Marie of the Netherlands, who already have weddings planned)
  1. Marie Gasparine of Saxe Altenburg- married head of a principality, apparently rejected for being unable to dress and having a terrible mother
  2. Catherine of Oldenburg- died young, I doubt she'd be chosen as both her surviving sisters married Russians, which means she'd likely do the same
  3. Elisabeth of Wied- major contender as Victoria rather liked her and the reason she was rejected (her looks) could be mitigated on a scenario where Bertie isn't such a catch. As they say, beggars can't be choosers. Plus maybe Carol I gets an heir
  4. Anna of Hesse Darmstadt- apparently rejected for a disturbing twitch, could be a potential bride
  5. Alexandrine of Prussia- wealthy, but apparently plain and not too clever, if Bertie is strapped for cash she could be considered
  6. Wilhelmine of Wurttemberg and Augusta of Schleswig Holstein- neither has a Wikipedia page, so take from that what you will. Augusta is a niece of Christian IX, so she probably has more value then Wilhelmine.
 
Adelaide would certainly be a good match for fritz
About the Sons of Vitoria and Alberto =
1- Victoria - Alberto da Prussia in 1859
2 - Alberto Eduardo - As heir to a dukedom certainly the pressure to marry would be lower and certainly his marriage would be postponed for later - The best candidates from my point of view would be Louise of Sweden in 1869 or Alexandrine of Prussia in 1865
3 - Alice - I think we could keep it with Louis of Hesse in 1862
4 - Alfredo - I believe that someone like Helen of Mecklenburg Strelitz in 1877 or Maria Elisabeth of Saxe Meiningen in 1873
5 - Helena - A good match would be Augustus of Sweden between 1864 and 1866
6 - Louise - I believe that someone like Alexandre Petrovich of Oldenburg or Ernest of Cumberland between 1867-1869
7 - Arthur - I believe that Louise of Schleswig Holstein in 1880 or Augusta Vitoria of Schleswig Holstein in 1881
8 - Leopold - I believe that I would have died before marrying, since I would have been only a minor prince of Saxon Gotha, and the concern to contract a marriage would be minimal - in any case a marriage with Carolina Mathilda of Schleswig Holstein between 1883 and 1885 would have been a good match
9 - Beatrice - Certainly his second cousin Adolf Frederick of Mecklenburg Strelitz between 1875 and 1879

About Dagmar there are several candidates but for me the most attractive would be Humberto da Itália and Guilherme de Orange between 1865-1867
 
I am currently fleshing out Leopold/George of Greece and his family/reign - did we settle on a Russian or a French bride, or just that it would be one or the other after the negotiations to get him the throne?
 
If Victoria and Albert keep going at it like rabbits they might. The children might not have the same survival rate, but Victoria and Albert's sex life seems destined for many pregnancies.

As for Saxe Weimar, two of the Saxe Weimar Eisenach girls were considered for Bertie IOTL however they're both a bit young (if we go with an 1841 DOB for Bertie then major candidates Marie and Pauline are 8 and 11 years younger respectively) and the elder of the two was described as having black teeth and being a bit ugly. He likely gets one of the lower level girls proposed for him.

Looking at the rejected candidates (excluding Alexandra of Denmark and Marie of the Netherlands, who already have weddings planned)
  1. Marie Gasparine of Saxe Altenburg- married head of a principality, apparently rejected for being unable to dress and having a terrible mother
  2. Catherine of Oldenburg- died young, I doubt she'd be chosen as both her surviving sisters married Russians, which means she'd likely do the same
  3. Elisabeth of Wied- major contender as Victoria rather liked her and the reason she was rejected (her looks) could be mitigated on a scenario where Bertie isn't such a catch. As they say, beggars can't be choosers. Plus maybe Carol I gets an heir
  4. Anna of Hesse Darmstadt- apparently rejected for a disturbing twitch, could be a potential bride
  5. Alexandrine of Prussia- wealthy, but apparently plain and not too clever, if Bertie is strapped for cash she could be considered
  6. Wilhelmine of Wurttemberg and Augusta of Schleswig Holstein- neither has a Wikipedia page, so take from that what you will. Augusta is a niece of Christian IX, so she probably has more value then Wilhelmine.
Hmm interesting Elisabeth of Wied could be a good bride
 
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