William III as Duke of Guelders

In 1675, the Estates of Gelderland offered the title of 'Duke of Guelders, Count of Zutphen' to William III of Orange. This caused a negative reaction in Amsterdam (the stock market collapsed) and Dutch Billy declined the honor.
What would've happened if he had accepted? How would this have affected his relations with the United Provinces and with the international scene?
 
I don't think it would have been that disasterous. He could have gotten a conflict with Amsterdam, but I think it would have been solved relatively easily. I don't think it would have caused a repeat of the tensions in the age of Willem II.

Personaly I think it would have ben interesting to see what would have happened with the title after Willem III's death. Would it go to the next stadholder or would it go to Frederick of Prussia, like many other titles of Willem III, like the county of Lingen and Moers
 
Well, at this point William is still unwed, this was 1675, he married Mary II in 1679. So, if he marries elsewhere, he might still have children.

Although, considering that the nearest heir to the duchy of Guelders was the duke of Lorraine (through their descent from Philippine of Guelders, twin sister of the last duke), it might rankle a little with Lorraine. As well as with the Hapsburgs - considering that AFAIK William only ruled part of Guelders.
 
@ Pompejus & @ Kellan Sullivan: the titles were offered by the Estates of Gelre (Gelderland), so they want to have a say in a situation of a disputed succession. They might prefer a Stadtholder over the king in Prussia.
Willem III might need put some effort in the recognition of these titles by other European Powers.
 
Jonas do you happen to have any links where one can read up on the offer? What prompted them to do it etc
 
Well, at this point William is still unwed, this was 1675, he married Mary II in 1679. So, if he marries elsewhere, he might still have children.

Although, considering that the nearest heir to the duchy of Guelders was the duke of Lorraine (through their descent from Philippine of Guelders, twin sister of the last duke), it might rankle a little with Lorraine. As well as with the Hapsburgs - considering that AFAIK William only ruled part of Guelders.

The Upper Quarter with the eponymous town of Geldern was still Spanish.
I assume that the offer from Arnhem happened in the context of the rampjaar of 1672 with the attack by France, England, Cologne and Münster. The latter two as Rhenish/Westphalian states were strategic neighbours of Gelderland. So their offer was probably born from the desire to strengthen William's personal interest in keeping them safe. Ie not selling them out or giving them up and concentrate on safekeeping the richer Dutch areas west of the Veluwe.
 
Jonas do you happen to have any links where one can read up on the offer? What prompted them to do it etc

It's in the wiki article, but it was also in a textbook I had on 17th century European politics for my one class. Can't remember the name of the textbook though - I think it's called Europe in the 17th century or something.
 
The Upper Quarter with the eponymous town of Geldern was still Spanish.
I assume that the offer from Arnhem happened in the context of the rampjaar of 1672 with the attack by France, England, Cologne and Münster. The latter two as Rhenish/Westphalian states were strategic neighbours of Gelderland. So their offer was probably born from the desire to strengthen William's personal interest in keeping them safe. Ie not selling them out or giving them up and concentrate on safekeeping the richer Dutch areas west of the Veluwe.

I can quite believe that. And I can quite believe that Amsterdam would throw a little hissy fit over it, since in the Rampjaar they were still under the government of the regents IIRC. Any appearance that the house of Nassau-Oranje was getting stronger within the UP itself, would be seen by them as a stepping stone to absolute monarchy.

I wonder if William would give his famous reply to Lord Arlington about "to die defending it to the last ditch" if he were duke already. And also, might William/William's son(s) be elected as hereditary lords (not statholders, but dukes/counts/margraves) of any other provinces - perhaps an early step to UP becoming a very different kingdom of the Netherlands/Batavia.
 
I can quite believe that. And I can quite believe that Amsterdam would throw a little hissy fit over it, since in the Rampjaar they were still under the government of the regents IIRC. Any appearance that the house of Nassau-Oranje was getting stronger within the UP itself, would be seen by them as a stepping stone to absolute monarchy.

I wonder if William would give his famous reply to Lord Arlington about "to die defending it to the last ditch" if he were duke already. And also, might William/William's son(s) be elected as hereditary lords (not statholders, but dukes/counts/margraves) of any other provinces - perhaps an early step to UP becoming a very different kingdom of the Netherlands/Batavia.

Why would Amsterdam throw a fit? The offer was in 1675, so William's already Stadtholder. But if it happened before, like in 1670/71, that would be very interesting. But it would anger the Spanish, who still used that title at this point.

As for other states following that lead, it could be possible. But considering William's fertility issues, I wouldn't hold my breath on a son.
 
Why would Amsterdam throw a fit? The offer was in 1675, so William's already Stadtholder.

Because they were afraid Willem III would turn into a king. The regents of Amsterdam liked that they ruled the country and didn't want the stadholder to become the ruler. Even when Willem III became stadholder the regents were some of the most powerful people in the country.
 
I wonder if William III as duke of Guelders would make him a stronger player on the international scene? A lot of people (including his relatives) derided him because he was an "elected" sovereign at the head of a squabbling oligarchy in a world drifting towards absolutism.

Also, I think the State of Holland might take issue somewhat with the idea of a ruler who's power exists outside that which they have bestowed on him.
 
I wonder if William III as duke of Guelders would make him a stronger player on the international scene? A lot of people (including his relatives) derided him because he was an "elected" sovereign at the head of a squabbling oligarchy in a world drifting towards absolutism.

I don't think so. He was after all already Prince of Orange, count of Lingen and Moers, Baron of Breda and various other titles I am too lazy to look up. Being Duke of Gelderland probably would add a lot (although technically duke is a higher title than prince, it often was't consider to be so in this case).
 
I don't think so. He was after all already Prince of Orange, count of Lingen and Moers, Baron of Breda and various other titles I am too lazy to look up. Being Duke of Gelderland probably would add a lot (although technically duke is a higher title than prince, it often was't consider to be so in this case).

Don't forget Count of Katzenelnbogen, Leerdam, duke of Nassau and something of Buuren:D
 
Because they were afraid Willem III would turn into a king. The regents of Amsterdam liked that they ruled the country and didn't want the stadholder to become the ruler. Even when Willem III became stadholder the regents were some of the most powerful people in the country.
And indeed, the position of Stadtholder wasn't hereditary nor necessarily present. Between the early death of Willem II and 1672 (Willem III's younger years!) there was none, and quite a lot of people in high places would have liked nothing more than a return to that.

And Amsterdam officials and similar-minded were very protective of the powers of cities, often in direct conflict with the Stadtholders (and with at least some tension the rest of the time). Considering practically every Stadtholder after William the Silent purged every major's administration soon into their rule (and quite violently in the case of 1672!), it's not very surprising.

Gelre was itself an interesting case, politically. While the always-Orangist nobility controlled half the Estates, the other half wasn't dominated by cities but also had room for commoners to be represented as a third party. Well, I say commoners, they were guildsmen and militiamen (so obviously they had some means), but they were still not members of the political ruling class.

Jonathan Israel's The Dutch Republic: Its Rise, Greatness and Fall, 1477–1806 devotes quite a bit of attention to this conflict between the cities and the Stadtholders, as well as earlier and later iterations of that conflict. I'd recommend it to everyone interested.

I don't think so. He was after all already Prince of Orange, count of Lingen and Moers, Baron of Breda and various other titles I am too lazy to look up. Being Duke of Gelderland probably would add a lot (although technically duke is a higher title than prince, it often was't consider to be so in this case).
Burggraaf of Veere and Flushing was another important title, but for domestic reasons. (ie. he basically was the nobility portion of the Estates of Zeeland).

Something that's interesting to consider is that just before his death the States-General were discussing to give William the Silent their respective titles (since times where rough and the Estates deemed centralised stable leadership important, just like Guelders in 1675); a discussion that still lingered on 90 years later when this issue with Guelders was happening. It's what might have happened if William the Silent had survived his assassination, which would form an interesting starting point for a TL.

(I've already sketched something out myself, but it might be a bit wankish; at some point Frederik Hendrik marries the ATL only daughter of John William of Cleves(!))
 
Something that's interesting to consider is that just before his death the States-General were discussing to give William the Silent their respective titles (since times where rough and the Estates deemed centralised stable leadership important, just like Guelders in 1675); a discussion that still lingered on 90 years later when this issue with Guelders was happening. It's what might have happened if William the Silent had survived his assassination, which would form an interesting starting point for a TL.

(I've already sketched something out myself, but it might be a bit wankish; at some point Frederik Hendrik marries the ATL only daughter of John William of Cleves(!))

It's not wankish, at least, I don't think so. I've wondered about an only child for John William too. Whether he/she would be Catholic or Protestant, and if it was a she, who would carry off the United Duchies. But such a lady would be a far better match for FH than Amalie of Solms-Brauenfels - who let's just say only became stadtholderin because FH was thinking with his "other" brain:D
 
It's not wankish, at least, I don't think so. I've wondered about an only child for John William too. Whether he/she would be Catholic or Protestant, and if it was a she, who would carry off the United Duchies. But such a lady would be a far better match for FH than Amalie of Solms-Brauenfels - who let's just say only became stadtholderin because FH was thinking with his "other" brain:D
The interesting thing is that John William (and any of his descendants) also had a claim on the duchy of Guelders, William the Rich having hold that title for a while during the Guelderian Wars, after having been made the heir of Charles II of Guelders, a popular figure and local Dutch nobleman. Any descendant of both William the Silent and William the Rich would need to be mad not to make note of that (and indeed, the only son of William the Rich was quite mad ;)).

William the Rich is a vary interesting person; apart from being rich he greatly improved the defences and wealth of his realm, something the victors of the War of the Jülich succession would benefit from. He was also an admirer of Erasmus, open to discussion on religion and corresponded with William the Silent numerous times; I've sadly haven't been able to find a legible transcript of one of those letters. It's definitely an interesting and potentially fruitful bit of history.
 
The interesting thing is that John William (and any of his descendants) also had a claim on the duchy of Guelders, William the Rich having hold that title for a while during the Guelderian Wars, after having been made the heir of Charles II of Guelders, a popular figure and local Dutch nobleman. Any descendant of both William the Silent and William the Rich would need to be mad not to make note of that (and indeed, the only son of William the Rich was quite mad ;)).

Well, as to the insanity it seems to be the usual knit-one-skip-one of genetics in the sense that while Wilhelm der Reiche was mad, his son Karl Friedrich wasn't, and Johann Wilhelm from what I can make out was merely apathetic (esp. since he was never trained to be duke and after his older brother died, his dad wasn't exactly willing to teach him). I've always thought a surviving Karl Friedrich would make for an interesting discussion.

But as to the Cleves claim on Guelders, the house of Lorraine had a better hereditary claim based on their descent from Philippa of Guelders, twin sister of the last duke. Cleves' claim was via a cousin or further up in the family tree AFAIK.
 
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