Wilhelm von der Marck Duke of Cleve, Jülich, Berg and Guelders

Valdemar II

Banned
Wilhelm von der Marck or William "the Rich" inherited Guelders* (Gelderland) in 1538, but lost it to the Habsburg again with the Treaty of Venlo in 1543.

What if Wilhelm gets a better deal, and get to keep Guelders? while Guelders was one of the poorer Dutch provinses, it was still quite a catch, it would cut off the Northeast Netheland from the rest of the Habsburg Netherland, it would give Jülich, Cleve and Berg access to the sea, and later on at the time of the Dutch Rebellion it cut of Habsburg support to the Northeast. Beside that in 1541 Wilhelm converted to Lutheranism it would create a large Lutheran block in Rhineland, a place where Lutheranism stod rather weak. Beside that after the Dutch Rebellion it will result in Münsterland and Colognes (the Bishopric) eastens possesion will become enclave in Protestant territorium, and we could even see Münsterland and in the most extreme case Cologne end up like Bremen and Lübeck under a Lutheran admistrator (maybe a relative of the Duke of Jülich-Cleves-Berg-Guelders or even himself). Which would place Northe Germany completely under Protestant control (mostly Lutheran).
 

Susano

Banned
Cross-posted from The Ark:

Well, basically the Schmalkaldic League, particularily Hesse, sold him out to the Emperor (and hence shot themselves in the own feet). With a less deep Hessian-Saxon rift in the League, Hesse would feel no need to try to keep semi-neutral with the Emperor and make secret treaties behind the Leagues back (no bigamy of Philip the Maganimous woul dhel, too, but taht factors usually overrated). With a more coherent League, wed have a Schamlkaldic War in 1538 already instead of 1546, and one the League has a huge chance to win...

Of course, that would change ALL of Germany
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Cross-posted from The Ark:

Well, basically the Schmalkaldic League, particularily Hesse, sold him out to the Emperor (and hence shot themselves in the own feet). With a less deep Hessian-Saxon rift in the League, Hesse would feel no need to try to keep semi-neutral with the Emperor and make secret treaties behind the Leagues back (no bigamy of Philip the Maganimous woul dhel, too, but taht factors usually overrated). With a more coherent League, wed have a Schamlkaldic War in 1538 already instead of 1546, and one the League has a huge chance to win...

Of course, that would change ALL of Germany

Interesting, what would those changes be?
The other solution could be that Karl stay alive long enough that the war either happens under Schamlkaldic War or last through it.


As a bonus I have a map of Wilhelms territories

Gelderland1543.png
 

Susano

Banned
Well, Hesse had a secret treaty with the Emperor, in which Philip regogniced Charles Vs right to Guelders. So, even if the succession crisis happens later... unless the timing is so fortunate that it happens right during the war... Personally, I dunno what would make Philip less sneaky. Maybe some League defeat frightens him enough to stay a steady course? But 38 is even before the Brunswick expeditions, IIRC the chronology, the League hadnt done much yet where it could be defeated...
 

Susano

Banned
Hrm. What would be the consequences of a Schmalkaldic victory?

That depends. Inetesringly, even Ernestine Saxony had no fiore-eating anti-Habsburg position. Politically, unless the League gets a sudden fit of megalomania (always possible, though, of course) the consequence might be that just after the Princes Uprising IOTL Charles V is ran out of Germany and his brother Ferdinand is made HRE, just 17 years earlier... Religiously though, that would absolutely seal Catholicisms fate in Germany, though. Only Bavaria was really stubbornly Bavarian, and it hardly could hold out against in such a situation. Catholicism might survive as minority in mixed, religiously liberal areas like the Mark lands, the Palatinates and presumably the Habsburg lands under Ferdinand in such a situation, but I doubt therell be any major catholic states remaining...
 

Valdemar II

Banned
That depends. Inetesringly, even Ernestine Saxony had no fiore-eating anti-Habsburg position. Politically, unless the League gets a sudden fit of megalomania (always possible, though, of course) the consequence might be that just after the Princes Uprising IOTL Charles V is ran out of Germany and his brother Ferdinand is made HRE, just 17 years earlier... Religiously though, that would absolutely seal Catholicisms fate in Germany, though. Only Bavaria was really stubbornly Bavarian, and it hardly could hold out against in such a situation. Catholicism might survive as minority in mixed, religiously liberal areas like the Mark lands, the Palatinates and presumably the Habsburg lands under Ferdinand in such a situation, but I doubt therell be any major catholic states remaining...

What would happen to the Netherland, would Karl keep them, would they go to Ferdinand or would someone else get them? And when you say Protestantism do mean a mix or Lutheranism more or less alone?
 

Susano

Banned
What would happen to the Netherland, would Karl keep them, would they go to Ferdinand or would someone else get them? And when you say Protestantism do mean a mix or Lutheranism more or less alone?

Well, whod have alternate claims on those lands?* Of course League powers could simply annex those lands, but that would create all kind of politcial problems. Hence why I said it depends, on just how ambitious (or victory drunk) the League would be...

As for the religious question, hm, with the catholic threat gone, Hesse and Upper Germany might take up positions of Zwingli and Bucer again indeed, come to think of it. So theres definitly potential for even more conflict... I could even see Ferdinand suppoprting that as politcial tool, seeing how, ah, interwoven Luther and Saxony were...

*Actually, going by strict male linearity, Hesse does on Brabant :p , but I doubt theyd even remember!
 
First i must admit that i don't know much (anything except what I just read on wikipedia) about the Schmalkaldic wars, but I believe that it isn't very relevant for the situation in Gelre. William of Cleves/Mark/julich/Berg didn't inherit a Duchy when it got Gelre, but it inherited a warzone. Gelre had been Burgundian before but managed to become independent again in 1513. After that Gelre, together with a large part of northeastern netherlands, resisted the Burgundian influence for years. In 1538 they had already lost Frisia, Groningen, Drenthe and Overijssel to the Burgundians and it still continued in Gelre. The war had little to do with any larger german strategy, but more with a localised war in the Netherlands. The Burgundians wanted gelre back, certainly now it connected northeast netherlands with the rest of the netherlands.
 

Susano

Banned
What Burgundians would that be, pray tell? Their successors it would be, the Habsburgs. And anything involved with the Habsburg its automatically an empire-wide issue.
 
What Burgundians would that be, pray tell? Their successors it would be, the Habsburgs. And anything involved with the Habsburg its automatically an empire-wide issue.

In Dutch history it is still usual to call the Habsburgs Burgundian in this age. That only changed with Philip II when they become the Spanish. Maybe I shouldn't have used it. The thing is, there was a was between Gelre and the "Burgundian" since 1502 (or even 1473) without the rest of the empire involved. It continued up to 1543 without the rest of the empire involved, so I see no reason why the rest of the empire would get involved now. It was a regional conflict and it had remained a regional conflict. As i said Willem just had the bad luck to inherit a warzone.
 

Susano

Banned
In Dutch history it is still usual to call the Habsburgs Burgundian in this age. That only changed with Philip II when they become the Spanish. Maybe I shouldn't have used it. The thing is, there was a was between Gelre and the "Burgundian" since 1502 (or even 1473) without the rest of the empire involved. It continued up to 1543 without the rest of the empire involved, so I see no reason why the rest of the empire would get involved now. It was a regional conflict and it had remained a regional conflict. As i said Willem just had the bad luck to inherit a warzone.

Because Habsburg had at this point an enemy-wide alliance against him, hence William wouldve made a natural ally, especially as he was, err, lets say, semi-protestant. That IS the reason why the issues mentioned in the Hessian-Imperial agreement, after all.
 
Because Habsburg had at this point an enemy-wide alliance against him, hence William wouldve made a natural ally, especially as he was, err, lets say, semi-protestant. That IS the reason why the issues mentioned in the Hessian-Imperial agreement, after all.

William wouldn't have made an natural ally. William would have made a declaration of war against the empire. There already was a war in Gelre. There had been a war in Gelre since 1502. Saying that you support him in a war, means to go to war against the emperor at that precise moment, as he already was involved in a war against the emperor. A war that so far almost noone had cared about and the only places that had cared about it were already annexed. A war Gelre had been losing for years at that moment. Do you really think they were willing to do that?
 

Susano

Banned
A war Gelre had been losing for years at that moment. Do you really think they were willing to do that?
For gaining one of the richest territories of Germany as an ally? For sure, normally, if there hadnt been power fights within the League, as said.
 
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