WIF WWI ended in 1917 how would the Washington treaty of gone

What you are talking about would probably be a return to pre-Great War relations between Britain and Japan - which isn't going to happen. The only the Japanese are going to be paramount in Asia is at the expense of Britain and the United States - which isn't going to happen either or without reluctance.

With a Great War that ends earlier, without US involvement, and with an intact Imperial Germany and AH, I think there would be a _lot_ of chaps keen to see a return of pre War relations across the board. And they would be the chaps that matter, the chaps that know chaps. Remember, this would mean that the interrelationships between the German and British ruling classes would probably survive intact.

And I suspect that in such a scenario, there would probably be a lot of unhappiness between Britain and France. One must assume that France has pretty much been dumped on - either the Germans have overrun France to such an extent that she has no alternative but to accept any peace she can get; or the British have "re-evaluated their position" in the good old C18 fashion, and decided that there is no point hanging onto a loser and going down for the count. And conversely, Britain is almost certain to regard France as having let the side down (as they did, of course) . That sentiment happened in OTL, it is the origin of the "cheese eating surrender monkey" thing : no-one would ever have applied such a sentiment to pre 1914 France. Quite the reverse.

So Britain is going to be hostile to France, contemptuous of USA. Relations with Germany will be strained (Fritz is almost certain to have gone decidedly uppity). So, ally-wise, AH looks good (they are likely to be pissed off with Germany), and a traditional ally. And Johnny Jap : who has not put a foot wrong. Good solid chap, played out the innings. Knew his place, too. No real reason NOT to carry on the alliance.

And Japanese ambitions in the Far East need not have been _too_ upsetting for Britain. Britain rather tended to think of the "east" as ending at Hong Kong. So long as Japan kept to North China there was no reason that a modus vivendi could not be founded. The Dutch might be a bit unhappy what with the DEI and all. Still can't make an omelette without breaking eggs, and they owe us for the Medway.

If the British ruling class had such a positive view of the Japanese they certainly weren't intermarrying with them for their money. So I think your whole point is questionable.

Well, bit tricky that, old chap, what with them not being Christians and all. Jolly white chap, Johnny Jap, but having ones daughter marry one would be carrying things a bit far. Not sure about the money either, did the Jap ruling class have much? My impression is that they were more like the British, blood as blue as ink, but, financially, mostly on the bones of their bums.

If one wanted money to shore up the family coffers a bit, Cousin Jonathan was the fellow to apply to. Not all that pleasant I guess, but noblesse oblige and so on. And they were Christians, more or less.
 
Because Japan still had something to gain from a Treaty? Well that and sentiment which is utterly unpredictable. With Britain definitively unwilling to extend the treaty to cover the U.S., Japan has absolutely no incentive to renew the Treaty except sentiment. With a semi-victorious Germany definitely opposed to Britain, Britain will be seeking alliance with whoever rules in Russia even if it is the Bolsheviks.

Why do you assume that a semi-victorious Germany would be definitely opposed to Britain? Uppity, certainly, but hostile? I don't see any reason for that. France , yes. France will be as mad as a hopping mad horn toad. But Germany and Britain should be fairly amicable. (One rather assumes that whatever PoD it was that set the scenario has probably also butterflied away those dreadful lloyd-George and Asquith fellows) . For peace in 1917 (certainly, early 1917) one has to assume that it was a negotiated peace. And probably the only way that is going to happen is if Britain swapped sides. Otherwise France would never agree.

So the Anglo-German family relationships should still be OK. So, lots of chaps on each side who know chaps on the other side, who can oil the wheels, smooth things over and so on.


Indeed, what I want has no bearing on the issue. But the absurdity of an alliance based purely on sentiment and wishful thinking on both sides granting Britain sufficient influence to successfully discourage Japanese ambitions in China, which had been building since the Meiji restoration, and other than attacking the European colonizers including Britain is now the only means of satisfying Japanese ambition, now that is relevant.

Britain never really had any colonies in China, apart from Hong Kong, which was more an entre-pot than a colony. And Shanghai of course, but everybody had Shanghai. So long as Japan was willing to trade, no reason there should be difficulties. After all, that's what the colonies were for, trade.

That is no different from OTL. Except of course TTL, that massive fleet will also be targeting Germany, which Britain has every reason to encourage.



Because the Navy is tied to Britain, which failed to win WWI. Because the Army is tied to Germany which (apparently) won. Because the liberals are weakened by the failure of the Liberal democracies, while the militarists are strengthened by the success of their role model.


Well, the RN didn't lose the war either. Pretty much did exactly what it was intended to do, actually. And an early 1917 peace probably indicates that Britain managed to come out on the "winning" side.
 
Because Japan still had something to gain from a Treaty? Well that and sentiment which is utterly unpredictable. With Britain definitively unwilling to extend the treaty to cover the U.S., Japan has absolutely no incentive to renew the Treaty except sentiment. With a semi-victorious Germany definitely opposed to Britain, Britain will be seeking alliance with whoever rules in Russia even if it is the Bolsheviks.

Except that was the case with the 1911 treaty renewal and Japan signed then. It was unhappy about the probable exclusion of an aggressive America but decided the alliance was still of value. Similarly majority opinion in Japan was eager for a renewal in 1922.

Depends on the circumstances. There might or might not be a Bolshevik state. Given its nature and that of western Europe I'm doubtful whether the western powers would look for it to be an ally against the Germans or consider it to be a worthwhile one. [Remember that they were willing to support white groups in the early states of the civil war while still fighting the Germans.]

Indeed, what I want has no bearing on the issue. But the absurdity of an alliance based purely on sentiment and wishful thinking on both sides granting Britain sufficient influence to successfully discourage Japanese ambitions in China, which had been building since the Meiji restoration, and other than attacking the European colonizers including Britain is now the only means of satisfying Japanese ambition, now that is relevant.

Its based on more than sentiment, although that should never be underestimated. There is the fact that Japan is facing a pretty threatening US that has made clear its hostility to Japan. Having a major power as an ally and accepting it as an equal is significant. Don't forget as well that while some elements wanted outright military expansion others were looking towards commercial and economic expansion and some were looking to work with and help develop China as a fellow Asian nation.

That is no different from OTL. Except of course TTL, that massive fleet will also be targeting Germany, which Britain has every reason to encourage.

And how do you get that? Isolationist America, which refused to enter the conflict despite German subs murdering its citizens, is planning to target the German fleet! Which is going to have to get passed the RN before the Americans would be able to get anywhere near it. Or are you suggesting that America is going to do a pearl harbour attack on the HSF? I suspect that you mean the US is going to claim the German fleet as a threat. Given its markedly smaller size, short range, the fact the Germans will probably have to disband a lot of it and again it would still have to get passed the RN that is rather farcical.


Because the Navy is tied to Britain, which failed to win WWI. Because the Army is tied to Germany which (apparently) won. Because the liberals are weakened by the failure of the Liberal democracies, while the militarists are strengthened by the success of their role model.

Did Germany win. It had to give up all its gains in the west while those in the east could prove very expensive to hold. It's not, if I read the OP correctly, going to get back its extra-European colonies. Also with the war over its going to face the problem of war debts. Both the financial costs of the war and the desire for social change that the population will demand now its over, especially if the military are gaining victory.

Similarly have the liberal democracies lost? Their still standing and fully under the control of their governments with the German withdrawals. Imperial Russia has collapsed and Ottoman Turkey and the Hapsburg empire might well be in their death throbs. To the outside world its going to look like the autocracies that are faltering. [An exception here might be Italy but its probably still not seen as a major power as well as a less than stable one.

Also, I repeat what I said earlier. The threat the Japanese will see is from the US and it will require ships not divisions to seek to counter that.

1) We are talking 5 knots at the most, since from the initial G3 design to the finalized, it swelled by a few thousand tons while power remained the same. Plus the 32 knots was always theoretical. (obviously) Compare to the Iowa, which is lighter, has a hull form more optimized for speed, more advanced propeller designs, and 52000 more shp, giving a theoretical max of 35 knots, but which never made much more than 33 in practice. So the Montana sounds like a good example.

All the figures I've seen are for 32 or 32.5kts for the final design. Admittedly we will never know as it wasn't built but its unlikely to be more than a knot out at most. Even so as I say the difference is a hell of a lot of propulsion, as well as armour and related matters. [Since a longer hull needs more protection].

2) The design you mentioned sounds a lot like the Super Lion designs tossed around in 38, ie 12 16/45 guns, 26 kts, and that design had 130000 shp.

Possibly some similarities. As I said, one of the more knowledgeable guys on the site was suggesting it as what Britain might do after the G3s if they didn't want Britain to be the 1st to introduce 18" guns. This presumed them being laid down in the mid-late 20's and the Japanese for whatever reason, not completing any of their 18" ships.

Eh, the initial (ie F3, O3) designs were definitely for 35 kt, and were drawn up in December 1921, which would be at the very beginning of the Conference, and thus definitely not within U.S. limits given your claim of U.S. suggested limit of 32 kt.

As I said the US wanted to restrict the new ships to 32kt, matching their Colorado design. The British, having done work on what could be scaled down from the G3, successfully argued for 35k as it was believed as the smallest that the G3 design could be reduced to without vital details being lost. [Possibly this is quite hurried work as the US suggestions that formed the basis of the final agreement was supposed to have surprised all the visitors when 1st announced. Or alternatively the RN delegation had considered the US coming up with a limit similar to that]. As it was the efforts to shrink the O3 construction down to the limit, which both delayed construction and increased costs, actually overshot by nearly 2kt.:(

Before their rebuilds, the Queens never made much more than 23, while I believe the Rs did a bit better than expected, hence a lot of references to them being at 22-23 kts. So a 23.5 knot design like the Nelsons would slot in perfectly to the existing Slow Wing. It doesn't make much sense to have a slow wing, a mid wing, and a fast wing, just so that the mid wing can match the Nagatos, or outmanuever the SoDaks if they were willing to leave the rest of the battleline behind.

Actually it makes a lot of sense. Possibly not so much in terms of a full sized fleet battle as that would probably have been seen as highly unlikely. More likely in a ship or small squadron operating on their own as so often happened in WWII. [Although could be using hindsight here]. The extra speed means that more enemy ships could be caught or, if outnumbered, escaped. Even with a full fleet battle having powerful units who could choose the range and accept and decline combat from a single slow block like the US standards could be very useful. Or being able to cross the enemy line as the Japanese were able to at Tsushima. Also the higher the cruising speed the better a chance of avoiding air or sub attack, the later already having been shown as significant.

My main problem with that is that the deflation would need to be both incredibly severe, and ending rather quickly. Ie compare the 7.5-8 million for the Nelsons, and 9 million for the Vanguard, which of course was mostly an off the shelf design, and whose main armament was free. So there would need to be major deflation in the decade between Nelson and KGV, and then massive reinflation in the 3 years from KGV being laid down to Vanguard. Sure, there was a war on, but that's a bit extreme.

Quite possibly. I didn't say the price was accurate but just that severe deflation did occur in the 30's. Also don't forget that with Vanguard the main armament wasn't totally free as the guns had to be reconditioned and as you said there was probably a sizeable measure of wartime inflation. As such while the figures you quote may well be too low it may not be too far off. As I've said elsewhere the British yards were very, very cost effective for much of this period, especially compared to the US.

Steve
 
JedidiahStott

I think [hope;)] your being a bit tongue in cheek over the attitude of the time, although I suspect there were a fair number, not just in Britain, of the ruling elites who thought that sort of way.

However I think your wrong about a repreoachment between Britain and Germany. For one thing Germany, while it might actually be on the verge of social collapse and is likely to see some serious trouble is too damned big and looking too powerful. You run into the old problem that Britain needs to avoid one power dominating the continent and Germany is too close to that. Also, unless the Kaiser is willing to scrap much of his fleet, the HSF is still going to be seen as a grave danger, although it might well be past its best slim chances of taking on the RN. Furthermore, after a decade or so of growing hostility the two nations have just spent 3 years tearing each other apart in the most expensive war Europe has ever seen. Germany will also feel resentment that Britain was the core of the alliance that has fought it to a standstill.

Similarly while France will be feeling very weary it has regained its eastern provinces, including their important industries, albeit quite possibly looting and vandalised by the Germans. It will probably be in something like a Maginoe mode but looking to safeguard its eastern borders. Similarly with Belgium they will bitterly resent the occupation and devastation caused. The Germans might have imposed strict conditions to prevent them openly linking up with the other western powers but I can see a lot of fortress construction along both eastern borders. Both side will look to Britain for economic and diplomatic support and will get it. Depending on the exact circumstances Britain main not maintain a force on the continent but there will certainly be a sizeable BEF ready to go at very short notice.

Steve


With a Great War that ends earlier, without US involvement, and with an intact Imperial Germany and AH, I think there would be a _lot_ of chaps keen to see a return of pre War relations across the board. And they would be the chaps that matter, the chaps that know chaps. Remember, this would mean that the interrelationships between the German and British ruling classes would probably survive intact.

And I suspect that in such a scenario, there would probably be a lot of unhappiness between Britain and France. One must assume that France has pretty much been dumped on - either the Germans have overrun France to such an extent that she has no alternative but to accept any peace she can get; or the British have "re-evaluated their position" in the good old C18 fashion, and decided that there is no point hanging onto a loser and going down for the count. And conversely, Britain is almost certain to regard France as having let the side down (as they did, of course) . That sentiment happened in OTL, it is the origin of the "cheese eating surrender monkey" thing : no-one would ever have applied such a sentiment to pre 1914 France. Quite the reverse.

So Britain is going to be hostile to France, contemptuous of USA. Relations with Germany will be strained (Fritz is almost certain to have gone decidedly uppity). So, ally-wise, AH looks good (they are likely to be pissed off with Germany), and a traditional ally. And Johnny Jap : who has not put a foot wrong. Good solid chap, played out the innings. Knew his place, too. No real reason NOT to carry on the alliance.

And Japanese ambitions in the Far East need not have been _too_ upsetting for Britain. Britain rather tended to think of the "east" as ending at Hong Kong. So long as Japan kept to North China there was no reason that a modus vivendi could not be founded. The Dutch might be a bit unhappy what with the DEI and all. Still can't make an omelette without breaking eggs, and they owe us for the Medway.



Well, bit tricky that, old chap, what with them not being Christians and all. Jolly white chap, Johnny Jap, but having ones daughter marry one would be carrying things a bit far. Not sure about the money either, did the Jap ruling class have much? My impression is that they were more like the British, blood as blue as ink, but, financially, mostly on the bones of their bums.

If one wanted money to shore up the family coffers a bit, Cousin Jonathan was the fellow to apply to. Not all that pleasant I guess, but noblesse oblige and so on. And they were Christians, more or less.
 
Depends on the circumstances. There might or might not be a Bolshevik state. Given its nature and that of western Europe I'm doubtful whether the western powers would look for it to be an ally against the Germans or consider it to be a worthwhile one. [Remember that they were willing to support white groups in the early states of the civil war while still fighting the Germans.]

Of course they were willing to support the White groups. The Bolsheviks certainly weren't willing to fight the Germans...at least at that time. Whether the primary state in Russia is bolshevik or not, if it is too weak to be an useful ally, Britain wouldn'd need a Japanese alliance to watch it, and if it is strong enough to be an useful ally, it would be a more useful ally than Japan as well as a natural enemy of Japan.

Its based on more than sentiment, although that should never be underestimated. There is the fact that Japan is facing a pretty threatening US that has made clear its hostility to Japan. Having a major power as an ally and accepting it as an equal is significant. Don't forget as well that while some elements wanted outright military expansion others were looking towards commercial and economic expansion and some were looking to work with and help develop China as a fellow Asian nation.

By 1917, Japan had long stopped looking at China as an equal. By 1920, the Guandong Army and the Imperial Way faction were already entrenched in their power and influence, and determined to expand Japanese control in China. Considering the insane amounts Japan was quite willing to spend on its military long before the WNT or the abrogation of the Anglo-Japanese treaty, it seems clear that the peaceful expansion party were already well in eclipse. And of course, Britain is completely useless as an ally against the only power for which Japan could use an ally, leaving just sentiment. Though I agree that sentiment can do some crazy things, it is exceedingly doubtful that sentiment would be enough to persuade Japan to go for peace rather than militarism, when militarism had been steadily gaining in strength for decades, even without external events that strengthen militarism.

And how do you get that? Isolationist America, which refused to enter the conflict despite German subs murdering its citizens, is planning to target the German fleet! Which is going to have to get passed the RN before the Americans would be able to get anywhere near it. Or are you suggesting that America is going to do a pearl harbour attack on the HSF? I suspect that you mean the US is going to claim the German fleet as a threat. Given its markedly smaller size, short range, the fact the Germans will probably have to disband a lot of it and again it would still have to get passed the RN that is rather farcical.

And the idea that the USN would be used against against Britain is far more farcical. (though increasingly less so, if the Anglo-Japanese alliance continues) Fact is that the U.S. and Britain have by the 1920s no strategic conflicts, a compatible China policy, and numerous common strategic interests. Despite isolationism, the U.S. is a far more useful potential ally against Germany than Japan, which has endless strategic conflicts with Britain, and is a natural enemy of both Russia and the U.S., both of whom are natural allies of a Britain in conflict with Germany, on top of being far, far away.

Did Germany win. It had to give up all its gains in the west while those in the east could prove very expensive to hold. It's not, if I read the OP correctly, going to get back its extra-European colonies. Also with the war over its going to face the problem of war debts. Both the financial costs of the war and the desire for social change that the population will demand now its over, especially if the military are gaining victory.

Similarly have the liberal democracies lost? Their still standing and fully under the control of their governments with the German withdrawals. Imperial Russia has collapsed and Ottoman Turkey and the Hapsburg empire might well be in their death throbs. To the outside world its going to look like the autocracies that are faltering. [An exception here might be Italy but its probably still not seen as a major power as well as a less than stable one.

All comparisons are with OTL. Clearly Germany did not lose unlike OTL, and thus militarism will be far less discredited (as little as that was), and the boost to democrats that led to the short lived Taisho democracy will not occur. Yes, Russia was an autocracy, but it remains one of the 3 main Allies. Similarly, even with a mostly status quo ante bellum peace in the West, France will be crippled, thus knocking out one of the pillars of liberal democracy in this period. Most importantly, regardless of what the truth may be, a peace where Germany was able to knock out Russia and force France out while retaining A-L will be percieved in Japan as a German victory, which is all that's important here.

Also, I repeat what I said earlier. The threat the Japanese will see is from the US and it will require ships not divisions to seek to counter that.

And I repeat that this is no different from OTL. The only differences from OTL going into the treaty renewal/WNT period, are factors that would weaken the pro-British faction.

All the figures I've seen are for 32 or 32.5kts for the final design. Admittedly we will never know as it wasn't built but its unlikely to be more than a knot out at most. Even so as I say the difference is a hell of a lot of propulsion, as well as armour and related matters. [Since a longer hull needs more protection].

Well, the best comparison is with contemporary designs. Compare the Lexington battlecruisers, for instance, which have 20000 extra shp, a longer as well as narrower hull, and ~5000 tons less displacement, leading to a projected max speed of around 34 knots. However British estimates were that the design would not make more than 32 knots in practice, which is born out by the speed of the later carrier conversions which had the same hull and shp, but ~10kt less displacement.

As for just how much you can save by cutting down on the propulsion, the average cost of the Rs was only 2% lower than the average cost of the QEs, and the Rs had only 53% the shp. Or you can look at the 7.5 million pounds for the Nelson, which had a lot more cut than just the reduction to 28% the shp.

Japanese for whatever reason, not completing any of their 18" ships.

Well, I think that's a pretty safe assumption, considering the 1923 Earthquake. Certainly, they wouldn't be laid down for some time.

Actually it makes a lot of sense. Possibly not so much in terms of a full sized fleet battle as that would probably have been seen as highly unlikely. More likely in a ship or small squadron operating on their own as so often happened in WWII. [Although could be using hindsight here]. The extra speed means that more enemy ships could be caught or, if outnumbered, escaped. Even with a full fleet battle having powerful units who could choose the range and accept and decline combat from a single slow block like the US standards could be very useful. Or being able to cross the enemy line as the Japanese were able to at Tsushima. Also the higher the cruising speed the better a chance of avoiding air or sub attack, the later already having been shown as significant.

Well, like you said, the benefits of superior speed for individual action is with hindsight, while limited benefits of a nonuniform battleline are readily apparent. The N3 design was slated for 23 knots as well, and I see no reason for Britain to go for 26 knots in a nonescalatory N3 replacement. Well, that and the impossibility of building a Super Lion analogue for cheaper than the G3. Plus 26 knots is not nearly enough of an advantage for the kind of tactical advantages the Japanese got at Tsushima, especially not with the (well known) tight tactical radiuses of U.S. capital ships and the long ranges of post WWI capital ship combat. Even 30 knots is probably insufficient.

Quite possibly. I didn't say the price was accurate but just that severe deflation did occur in the 30's. Also don't forget that with Vanguard the main armament wasn't totally free as the guns had to be reconditioned and as you said there was probably a sizeable measure of wartime inflation. As such while the figures you quote may well be too low it may not be too far off.

Actually the number I cited as exclusive of main guns, mountings, and turret armor. I figure the actual cost of the Vanguard is probably in excess of 10 million, even with reconditioned guns and mountings much cheaper than new. There are also other examples like the 11 million pounds for the reconstruction of the QE during the same time period the KGVs were being built.

As I've said elsewhere the British yards were very, very cost effective for much of this period, especially compared to the US.

:pAnd as I 've said elsewhere, the cost of the later Standards strongly suggest otherwise, if not point in the other direction altogether.
 

burmafrd

Banned
Actually the Lexington did indeed exceed 34 knots later on. In the book "Queen of the Flattops" details were shown of a high speed run late in the 30s that had her average over 34 knots for several days. And in their trial runs all the Iowa Class exceeded their 33 knot rated speed. As a matter of fact they also exceeded it when rebuilt in the 80's. I have heard a few accounts that lightly loaded Iowas came close to 35 knots on some occasions. Fully loaded for war I can see 32 knots flank speed, maybe even 33 for a time.
 
JedidiahStott

I think [hope;)] your being a bit tongue in cheek over the attitude of the time, although I suspect there were a fair number, not just in Britain, of the ruling elites who thought that sort of way.

Hm. Slightly tongue in cheek. But only slightly. I can clearly remember hearing such sentiments when I was a young lad eavesdropping on the smoking room conversations of my elders. (which is more years ago than you would want to know). They were all silenced once WW2 came along of course.

But it is mistake to assume that the present day assumptions about the inherent superiority of democracies and such like can be applied to previous generations. Bear in mind that many of the decision makers in 1917 would have been born in mid 19C. Before the German Empire even existed , and would have risen to power during a period when republics were decidedly out of fashion. A man who can remember the proclamation of the German Empire is not going to see anything unlikely about its continuation.

The close inter familial relationships between the German and English upper-classes certainly existed - very unofficial, and more and more strained as WW I progressed. But in 1917 they would not have been severed. By no means everyone in England was convinced that supporting France in 1914 was the correct decision.

However I think your wrong about a repreoachment between Britain and Germany. For one thing Germany, while it might actually be on the verge of social collapse and is likely to see some serious trouble is too damned big and looking too powerful. You run into the old problem that Britain needs to avoid one power dominating the continent and Germany is too close to that. Also, unless the Kaiser is willing to scrap much of his fleet, the HSF is still going to be seen as a grave danger, although it might well be past its best slim chances of taking on the RN. Furthermore, after a decade or so of growing hostility the two nations have just spent 3 years tearing each other apart in the most expensive war Europe has ever seen. Germany will also feel resentment that Britain was the core of the alliance that has fought it to a standstill.
Oh, quite. I didn't think I did foresee a rapprochement .

[/QUOTE=JS]
Relations with Germany will be strained (Fritz is almost certain to have gone decidedly uppity). So, ally-wise, AH looks good (they are likely to be pissed off with Germany), and a traditional ally.
[/QUOTE]

Quite agree, Germany is going to be decidedly uppity and need taking down a peg or three, but , for the moment , one may have to put a good face on things and cozen up to Fritz. Until the time is right to stab him in the back. Germany and AH are bound to come to blows before long (quite apart from Russia); that's the time to put the knife in.

Similarly while France will be feeling very weary it has regained its eastern provinces, including their important industries, albeit quite possibly looting and vandalised by the Germans. It will probably be in something like a Maginoe mode but looking to safeguard its eastern borders. .. Both side will look to Britain for economic and diplomatic support and will get it. Depending on the exact circumstances Britain main not maintain a force on the continent but there will certainly be a sizeable BEF ready to go at very short notice.

Steve
That's the stuff - keep both of them onside, until the right opportunity presents itself. That's what Palmerston would have done. Not sure about a permanent BEF, but such a notion would certainly underpin the need for a reliable Eastern ally - such as Japan.
 
Hm. Slightly tongue in cheek. But only slightly. I can clearly remember hearing such sentiments when I was a young lad eavesdropping on the smoking room conversations of my elders. (which is more years ago than you would want to know). They were all silenced once WW2 came along of course.

But it is mistake to assume that the present day assumptions about the inherent superiority of democracies and such like can be applied to previous generations. Bear in mind that many of the decision makers in 1917 would have been born in mid 19C. Before the German Empire even existed , and would have risen to power during a period when republics were decidedly out of fashion. A man who can remember the proclamation of the German Empire is not going to see anything unlikely about its continuation.

Very true. Its difficult for anyone not born in another age to really understand its viewpoint.;) Also as you say it tends to be the more elderly who make the bulk of the statesmen and that compounds the matter.


The close inter familial relationships between the German and English upper-classes certainly existed - very unofficial, and more and more strained as WW I progressed. But in 1917 they would not have been severed. By no means everyone in England was convinced that supporting France in 1914 was the correct decision.

Very true and not just in the upper classes. Remember reading a book on the 1914 Xmas truce and surprising how many of the German troops had been working in Britain pre-war. My favourite was a solider who stood up, on one of the less friendly sections of the front declaring he had a wife and 6 children in Birmingham and being warned if he didn't get down again it would be a widow and 6 orphans.

I think a lot of people may have wondered about what was the right choice, especially given how bloody the conflict had been but unless Germany makes major changes, especially on the naval front, I can't see much change, especially after so much blood has been split. Although some of the early war Germanophobic would probably be frowned upon.

Quite agree, Germany is going to be decidedly uppity and need taking down a peg or three, but , for the moment , one may have to put a good face on things and cozen up to Fritz. Until the time is right to stab him in the back. Germany and AH are bound to come to blows before long (quite apart from Russia); that's the time to put the knife in.

That's the stuff - keep both of them onside, until the right opportunity presents itself. That's what Palmerston would have done. Not sure about a permanent BEF, but such a notion would certainly underpin the need for a reliable Eastern ally - such as Japan.

You obviously remember Pammy's famous rule about our permanent allies.:D:p

Steve
 
Guys

As mentioned above I had seen similar discussions on a naval board that unfortunately is no more. However managed to find a successor and put the question on costs. Here are the main replies I've received.

from 1Big Rich
A number of threads were lost when Bob's new phpbbplanet forum went down, but take a look at these threads over on Warship1/NavWeaps:

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/383

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/613

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/3958

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/6622

IIRC, we had addressed costs on this forum before it went Yuku, but that thread had fallen off the end of the board before we changed over to phpbbplanet...

Some fascinating info here, including the frustrating snippet that Baldwin could have had two G3's for Britain instead of the two Nelson's if he had given up the Tiger! Unfortunately he didn't check with his naval advisors before rejected the idea.:(:(:( Sounds like even he didn't know the G3's were fast battleships rather than battlecruisers.


- from New Golconda
The KGV price was roughly 7 million a copy in peacetime.

However, the RN stuffed up the estimating and they managed to claw back about 20% of that as "excess profits".

2.9 million is way too low.

RN are routinely quoted in multiple sources Brown, Parkes I believe - half a dozen books.

The general trend was pretty flat in terms of pounds per ton from 1900-1914 - and a sudden doubling from 1914-1919 (reflected in the prices of Hood (5 million from memory) and the Nelsons (7,000,000). Brown breaks down the Nelson costs into categories.

It seems that the actual raw costs of British shipbuilding fell 20+% mid 20's to 1936 - the effect of the depression no doubt. There was some cartel activity in the shipyards at this time (particularly destroyers - again see Brown I believe) and profit margins went up substantially for some builders. By the late 1930's British warships were well cheaper than anybodies - half for less the USN cost for comparable ships. This largely flows from wages IMHO - shipbuilding has always been about labor costs. British wages in the industrial north were low and bleak. People would work long days riveting steel ships in the rain while eating bread, porridge and dripping.
A bit tongue in cheek at the end but some useful data. Have asked whether he thinks the drop in costs 1925-1935 was solely in Britain, as he seems to be saying, since the depression was world wide. May be greatest in Britain since you had the New Deal in the US and a more social view in most of Europe so the wages cut was probably greatest in Britain.

- from Creeping Death 1929
From various posts over the years:


Iowa - 100 mln $
Missouri - 125 mln $
SD - 77mln $
NC - 76.9mln $
Alaska - 74mln $
Richelieu -1 277 billion frank = 28.5mln $
JB - 1400 billion frank = 28.5mln $
Bismarck 196.7mln Reich mark = 78.6mln $
Tirpitz - 181mln reichsmarck = 72.4mln $
Scharnhorst 143mln reichsmarck = 57mln $
Gneisenau - 146 reichsmarck = 58.3mln $
Dunkerque and Strabourg - 700mln frank = 15mln$
KGV - 7.5 mln pounds, Howe - 8.5mln pounds = 30-34mln $
Yamato - 64.9mln yen =15.6mln $ 283 million Yen – 73 million dollars
Musashi 52.7 mln Yen = 12.9 mln $
I have no data for Littorio.
Here's data for other ships:
Soryu and Hiryu: 40,200,000 Yen
Akagi + Kaga: 53,000,000 Yen
Agano class: 26.4 million Yen
Oyodo: 31.16 million Yen
Katori class: 6.6 to 7.2 million Yen
Tone Class: 31.265 million Yen
Mogami Class: 24,833,950 Yen
Takao class: 28,370,000 Yen
Myoko class: 21.9 million Yen
Furutaka + Aoba class: 15 million Yen
Sendai class: 8.1 million Yen
Kuma + Nagara Class: 6 million Yen
Tenryu class: 4.55 million Yen

Taiho: 105,318,000 yen – 27,213,953 dollars

Battleships

KGV 1937 = £7.5..North Carolina $77(£15.6 )…Bismarck RM196.0(£15.9)…Richelieu FF2000 AFC (£16.3) Yamato(1937) - 64.9mln yen =15.6mln $ 283 million Yen – 73 million dollars Lion (est.) 1939 = £8.85….Iowa $100(£22.6)…….H39 (est.) RM240.0(£21.6)


Aircraft carriers

Illustrious 1937 £4.5…….Graf Zeppelin RM92.7 (£7.5)
Implacable 1939 £5.4……Essex AFC $68.9 (£15.5)


Cruisers

Dorsetshire 1927 AFC £1.96…….Suffren AFC FF153.0 (£1.23)
Leander 1931 AFC £1.6……..Köln RM37.0 (£1.92)
Belfast 1937 AFC £ 2.15……..Cleveland AFC $31.1 (£6.3)
Dido 1937AFC £1.57……..Atlanta $23.3 AFC (£4.7)……. ‘M’ class RM56.0 (£4.55)
12,500 ton 9X8in design 1940 £3.5 (est.)……
Baltimore $39.3 AFC (£10.26)…….Prinz Eugen RM104 (£10.
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Houston 1929 $17 m.


Destroyers

J/K class £0.52 (ex guns)….Benson AFC $8.8 (£1.7 )….Z1type AFC RM13.4 (£1.2)…Le Hardi FF84.0 (£0.68)

Submarines

U class AFC £0.3……..Gato AFC $6.3 (£1.56)……..Type VIIC RM4.3 (£0.42)


Kaga and Akagi(1920): 24.5 million (5.64 mil. pounds)
Soryu (1934): 11.68 million dollars(2.69 mil. pounds)
Hiryu(1936): 11.26 million dollars(2.59 mil.)
Agano class(1940): 6.18 million dollars(1.42 mil.)
Oyodo(1941): 7.3 million dollars(1.679 mil)
Katori class(1938): 1.7 to 1.86 million dollars(.39 mil to .43 mil.)
Tone class(1934): 9.06 million dollars(2.08 mil.)
Mogami class (1931): 7.59 million dollars(1.75 mil.)
Takao class (1927): 13.5 million dollars(3.11 mil.)
Myoko class (1924): 9.79 million dollars(2.25 mil.)
Furutaka + Aoba class(1922): 6.58 million dollars(1.51 mil.)
Sendai class(1922): 3.7 million dollars(.85 mil.)
Nagara class(1920): 2.9 million(.67 mil)
Kuma class(1917): 3.05 million dollars(.7 mil)
Tenryu class (1917): 2.37 million dollars(.55 mil)
I added some thoughts on those figures when I saw them this morning.

Many thanks for the information.
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Amazing how much cheaper the RN was in that time period. Not sure how they compare in performance but the difference between the U class subs [£0.3M] and the Gato [£1.56M] is dramatic. From a quick glance it seems that the US [higher wages/pork barrel?] and Germany [Nazi corruption?] are generally significantly higher than the others Europeans Seems like Japanese prices are also very low, except for the Yamato, which could have been too leading edge. Dramatic drop for the production of the Musashi at only a 1/5th of the costs so suspect at least one of those values is off somewhat.

I was thinking more of the WWI period, although some details for the Japanese designs there but gives a good range of value. Also notice that compared to pre-WWI when their largely crippled by frequent government changes, the French compare very well even with Britain for production costs.
 

burmafrd

Banned
One thing to check on for the US costs are that while some shipyards were doing multiple shifts others went to using OT instead so you will see inconsistencies about labor costs. The US was almost certainly the most expensive as regards labor costs. Multiple shifts would be much cheaper. 2 x 12 hour shifts vs 3 x 8 hr shifts- ships finished about the same time but the OT raises labor costs significantly.
 
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