WIF Teutonic Order wins at Grunwald

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This would not be simple but possible with a better leadership. Probably would not change things completely in a long run and definitely would not eliminate internal problems of the Order's state but could there be some noticeable changes, especially if the victory is decisive?
 
This would not be simple but possible with a better leadership. Probably would not change things completely in a long run and definitely would not eliminate internal problems of the Order's state but could there be some noticeable changes, especially if the victory is decisive?
Actually, it didn't even require better leadership. All it would've taken is one single man's charge, specifically Kökeritz's, to succeed. Dude almost came within a sword's length of the polish king. If, his secretary say, trips (which actually is a POD for a tl i think i read a while back) the polish are done.
 

Toraach

Banned
Is this about this Kokerintz even true or it is a story written to give more dramatics to the tale?

I thing not much change this battle was a lost oportunity without any significant outcome except using for propaganda purposes 400 years later. If Władysław the idiot would have been killed so not his pathetic dynasty on our throne certainly a good thing.

Only loses by the Order were in casualties which did not havy any long term importance especially in the context of the 13 years war decades later.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
A Teutonic Knights win at Grunwald most probably does not change things that much.
Most probably Poland will ground down the Order, eventually ...
Grunwald was important - the Allies took many prisners from amongst the "guests" whom the Order was obliged to ransom - that supposdlyy broke the Order's back finacially. Or so I've read.
If Jagiełło dies this means a new election. He was reasonably competent, but his grandsons ... but I digress. The new king could be somebody competent and his successors too - this changes things for Poland in the long run.
As I do not see Witold nor any other Lithuanian Duke elected this means that Poland does not have interests in the East - a game changer in the long run for both Poland and Lithuania.
 
The consensus among Lithuanian historians and casual fans is that the coalition retreats and tries again next year.

Which is almost what happened in OTL, too, even though they officially won.
 
As I do not see Witold nor any other Lithuanian Duke elected this means that Poland does not have interests in the East - a game changer in the long run for both Poland and Lithuania.
I'm not so sure about that. Polish nobles were interested in maintaining the union and from what we know of Vytautas, he would have responded positively to a crown offer from Poland.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
I'm not so sure about that. Polish nobles were interested in maintaining the union and from what we know of Vytautas, he would have responded positively to a crown offer from Poland.
You know more about this than I do :)
What did those magnates want the union for - was it for combining forces against the Order and/or stopping Lithuanian raiding?
Well the first did not work and the latter was dieing out, I believe.
Was Witold - a sonless sexagenarian - an attractive candidate?
 
You know more about this than I do :)
What did those magnates want the union for - was it for combining forces against the Order and/or stopping Lithuanian raiding?
Well the first did not work and the latter was dieing out, I believe.
Was Witold - a sonless sexagenarian - an attractive candidate?
Polish magnates, as far as I'm aware, were interested in Lithuania for personal purposes - acquiring estates in Lithuania, expanding their influence there, et cetera. Obviously, combining their forces against the Order was an important goal, too.

On Vytautas's attraction... yeah, that is a big problem for the plan. Unlike Jogaila, he was not good at making children at all. It's why I would put King Vytautas of Poland as not necessarily the most likely result of Jogaila's early death, but certainly a possible one.

Alternatively, the Poles could have invited an another member of the Gediminas dynasty.
 
You know more about this than I do :)
What did those magnates want the union for - was it for combining forces against the Order and/or stopping Lithuanian raiding?
Well the first did not work and the latter was dieing out, I believe.
Was Witold - a sonless sexagenarian - an attractive candidate?
Stopping Lithuanian raiding was more important for magnates of Lesser Poland than regaining Gdańsk, Lithuanian raids made Polish lands east of Vistula almost useless, fertile Lublin Uppland was almost uninhabitated and magnate eastates located there were of little value.
I thing not much change this battle was a lost oportunity without any significant outcome except using for propaganda purposes 400 years later. If Władysław the idiot would have been killed so not his pathetic dynasty on our throne certainly a good thing.
.
You think other dynasty would do better? I doubt, expect for Hohenzollerns maybe. Any royal house would care more about prestige of the dynasty than about interest of country, so if other monarch would replace Casimir IV (Kazik number 4 pathetic? Really???) he'll care more about Bohemia for son than Silesia for Poland if he had opportunity to get Czech crown for his dynasty.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
Siemowit IV with any chances? He had a shitload of sons, the eldest of which (also Siemowit, the future no. V) was a man grown.
Maybe Great Poland has had enough of Little Poland's with Lithuanian lands and force through a candidate who would not have eastern interests?
A side benefit would be adding "Trojden" to the pool of dynastic names :)
 
Siemowit IV with any chances? He had a shitload of sons, the eldest of which (also Siemowit, the future no. V) was a man grown.
Maybe Great Poland has had enough of Little Poland's with Lithuanian lands and force through a candidate who would not have eastern interests?
A side benefit would be adding "Trojden" to the pool of dynastic names :)
What Masovians have to offer? To even think about regaining Pomerelia from TO Poland needs at least neutral Lithuania, Teutonic Order occassionally played Lithuanians against Poles and tried to keep balance between the two, with Poland getting stronger, TO and Lithuania would eventually make formal alliance if there is no Polish-Lithuanian union but Lithuania is Christianised-Pomerelia was worth more than Samogitia.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
Mazowia has intangible benefit of "native dynasty" and not having been christened "yesterday".
Siemowit comes free of distractions like Muscovy and Golden Horde - his focus would be exclusively TO and Czechia.
And sage minds could expect see a round of civil wars between various candidates to the throne in Lithuania lessening its value as ally/opponent.
Nobody expects Czech power to implode over the Hussite Wars, of course ...
 
Mazowia has intangible benefit of "native dynasty" and not having been christened "yesterday".
Siemowit comes free of distractions like Muscovy and Golden Horde - his focus would be exclusively TO and Czechia.
And sage minds could expect see a round of civil wars between various candidates to the throne in Lithuania lessening its value as ally/opponent.
Nobody expects Czech power to implode over the Hussite Wars, of course ...
Masovia is already under Polish control as vassal duchy. Without union there is something more than TO and Czechs to care about-conflict with Lithuania over Podolia and Volhynia would go hot again.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
Masovia is already under Polish control as vassal duchy. Without union there is something more than TO and Czechs to care about-conflict with Lithuania over Podolia and Volhynia would go hot again.
This is what I was alluding to - maybe if a more western-oriented group of magnates comes to the fore they don't care about Podole and trade it to Lithuania for support against TO?
 
Actually, it didn't even require better leadership. All it would've taken is one single man's charge, specifically Kökeritz's, to succeed. Dude almost came within a sword's length of the polish king. If, his secretary say, trips (which actually is a POD for a tl i think i read a while back) the polish are done.

Yeah, but I'm not sure that death of Jagello would mean a lost battle. He was not (AFAIK) acting as a field commander and his death may even pass unnoticed. Surely, Vitold would gain a LOT but after the battle.
 
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