Widukid converts to Islam

[Byzantion]

So Widukid had been the resistant pagan leader of the Saxons staunchly fighting for the old gods rejecting Christianity brought by Franks. So we now the history of the massacre of 4000 Saxon nobles by Charlemagne and Widukid reverting to Christianity given the hopeless situation. Now imagine this scenario. What if a travelling Muslim Arab trader/scholar (they even travelled Northern Europe in early Medival Europe occasionally) happened to come in contact with important Saxon individuals, merchants and leaders and invited to their Thing. What if this individual is knowledgeable and fluent enough to learn the Saxon language and convincing in inspiring people through charisma, empathy and tolerance for the ways of the Saxons and intelligence. So lets say Widukid and the nobles of the Saxons are somewhat impressed and see the new religion as a chance to counter Frankish mission. So maybe the message spread to more or less still Christianity resisting Frisia aswell. Might it be possible that Islam despite the enormous geographic distance to its Centers in Europe gets a foothold in Saxony ? So there might be not yet the benefits like military assistance or trade networks by other Muslims that support such a descision but maybe in wake of stubborn desperate resistance such a move is possible ? An early Islam with North Germanic character in a pocket of Northern Europe ? So in history conversions of polreligious societies besieged by monotheistic invaders to rival monotheistic societies happened when their own belief system didn't inspire hope anymore to resist invaders. So the Khazar nobility choose Judaism, the Adyghe people of the Caucasus Islam. Sometimes religious conversions allegedly took place in relative short times. Allegedly the Maledive Islands had been converted by one Arab merchant.
So there will be many arguments against the likelyless of such a scenario but maybe such a historical twist could happen. So what would be the longterm effects ? How effective would be Saxon resistance ? What would be the longterm effects of the Middle Ages ? How would Scandinavia for example be affected ? Would Iberian Emirates want to establish relations ? How would the Saxon brothers in England see such a scenario ? OTL Saxons became devouted Christians with important input. So what would they ad as Al-Sakswnya to the Islamic world as merchants, traders, scholars and warriors ?

 

[Osman Aga]

Probably: Franks still smash the Saxons and still enforce Christianity. But a decent share of the Saxons population remains crypto-Islamic until the 12th century when they become convinced Christian to the last person.

Unless the Franks are mauled and there is an Islamic Emirate in Aquitaine, it is not going to survive.

 

[Denliner]

Widukind would probably have to kill Charlemagne during the Saxon Wars in order for an independent Saxony to even happen, as Charlemagne would remain an existential threat as long as he is alive. Once that is done, there is a possibility that he could convert to Islam if Muslim scholars travel to Saxony and he is interested in converted instead of Christianity (something along the parallels of receiving divine visions from God/Allah that makes him want to convert to Islam).

Their allegiance will depend on whether the Umayyads or the Abbasids convert the Saxons. I think an Arab or a Muladi preacher from Al-Andalus would be a more realistic scenario since both countries would prove to be pretty dangerous enemies for a divided Carolingian Empire.

 

[Atterdag]

What arguments could and Islamic missionary put forth that would be more convincing than a Christian one, in an 8th/early 9th century context?

 

[Abd ar-Rahman II]

What arguments could and Islamic missionary put forth that would be more convincing than a Christian one, in an 8th/early 9th century context?

Do you want help against the Frank bro ? Now it’s clearly not the most likely option but If the missionary respect and doesn’t condemn their tradition it might be doable . I think the Volga Bulghars converted for similar reason for help against the Khazars who were between them and the Caliphate even if they didn’t get that much help . But strengthening Muslim military capacity in Western Europe is probably important to make Islam more attractive to the Saxon

Might it be possible that Islam despite the enormous geographic distance to its Centers in Europe gets a foothold in Saxony ?

Yes to some point but for it to last you would need to screw the Frank at least in the short team

So there will be many arguments against the likelyless of such a scenario but maybe such a historical twist could happen. So what would be the longterm effects ?

Depending on how much root Islam have taken I except the nobility to less integrate in the Frankish work more revolt and the Saxon being generally even more a bother for the Frank . Also possibly a fear in Medieval Christian Europe of Pagan converting to Islam and encircling the Cheistian

How effective would be Saxon resistance ?

Possibly a little more I except more revolt long resistance and longer time to be integrate in the Frankish world

Would Iberian Emirates want to establish relations ?

They might want but I’m not sure they could as there a angry unified Frankish empire under Charlemagnes between them and him actively trying to destroy the Saxon in the period . They would probably not survive so long

So what would they ad as Al-Sakswnya to the Islamic world as merchants, traders, scholars and warriors ?

It has the potential to be a very fine addition with possibly beneficial consequences to the Islamic world but it would probably not last long

 

[Jürgen]

Converting any Germanic state to Islam is only slightly more likely than them converting to Shinto. We know a few Muslim traders and envoys visited Pagan Scandinavia, but they were rare and in general they come across in their own travel description as incredible obnoxious with them committing massive faux passes or coming across as 19th century Victorian explorers bitching over the natives. The truth is that Islam offered the Pagan Germanic tribes less than nothing and the Muslim visitors made no attempt to spread Islam to them. The Germanic tribes also lacked the urban communities which could serve as a place where a local Islamic community could live and slowly adapt to the local culture and keep contact to the Muslim World.

 

[Otto Kretschmer]

Material superiority is also a good argument.

Christians? Dude those guys can't even build cities.

Muslims? Dude... this magnificent Baghdad... surely Allah is on our side!

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Material superiority is also a good argument.

Christians? Dude those guys can't even build cities.

Muslims? Dude... this magnificent Baghdad... surely Allah is on our side!

But how many Saxons have ever seen Baghdad at the time of Widukid to have any comparision?

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

Material superiority is also a good argument.

Christians? Dude those guys can't even build cities.

Muslims? Dude... this magnificent Baghdad... surely Allah is on our side!

For one, even though Baghdad was well populated, the surrounding rural area was not densely populated. Not as populated as the nearby Rhineland of the Franks. Urban areas are not the sole reasoning for material advancement. Indeed, production via agricultural yields are very important.

 

[Osman Aga]

What arguments could and Islamic missionary put forth that would be more convincing than a Christian one, in an 8th/early 9th century context?

"Islam is the light infidel. And you can use some light in this dark part of the world".

 

[Otto Kretschmer]

But how many Saxons have ever seen Baghdad at the time of Widukid to have any comparision?

Yes, that's the issue.

 

[Atterdag]

"Islam is the light infidel. And you can use some light in this dark part of the world".

Sounds almost exactly like a Christian's argument.

 

[Denliner]

If Widukind was so disgusted at the slaughter of his countrymen at the hands of Charlemagne and/or the destruction of Irminsul during the Saxon Wars then I could see the viability of him converting to serve as the opposition to the Christian Franks for that reason alone, since that is now an option for him instead of just submitting to Christianity like in OTL.

The problem is getting Muslim preachers or merchants to travel to such a remote place before he will eventually convert to Christianity (and the odds of him becoming a Christian is just simply far higher than him being a Muslim). Perhaps the fragmentation of Charlemagne's empire will provide an opportunity for the Umayyad Emirs to expand north and retake Septimania or even conquer Arles and Toulouse, which could lend more credence towards Arabs reaching Saxony.

 

[Osman Aga]

If Widukind was so disgusted at the slaughter of his countrymen at the hands of Charlemagne and/or the destruction of Irminsul during the Saxon Wars then I could see the viability of him converting to serve as the opposition to the Christian Franks for that reason alone, since that is now an option for him instead of just submitting to Christianity like in OTL.

The problem is getting Muslim preachers or merchants to travel to such a remote place before he will eventually convert to Christianity (and the odds of him becoming a Christian is just simply far higher than him being a Muslim). Perhaps the fragmentation of Charlemagne's empire will provide an opportunity for the Umayyad Emirs to expand north and retake Septimania or even conquer Arles and Toulouse, which could lend more credence towards Arabs reaching Saxony.

Unless Al Andalus is strong enough to project power beyond the Pyrenees and thus diverting Frankish attention, the Saxons have little reason to convert to Islam. Stayin pagan makes more sense. Hence why I would value an Islamic Emirate of Aquitaine as a must as it will be too threatening for the Franks to exist. Or the British isles, but like the Saxons, the already christianized Anglo-Saxons also have little reason to convert to Islam or the Vikings who settled in Britain. Otherwise it would offer a threatening neighbor on the other side of the seas.