WI Zionism never popular

while this has a POD pre-1900 all the fall out (at lest 90%) is post 1900, what if Theodor Herzl never came up with Zionism, and the idea of a Jewish state was never popularized?
 
The Middle East obiviouly is radically different. It is much more peaceful and much less the focus of world attention. There is still a Suez crisis, with France and Britian still attacking Egypt and still pressured to back off by the President Eisenhower. Saddam Huessian ( I think the history of Iraq is still the same) still invades Kuwait and is still kicked out in Opearation Desert Storm. He is still in power because there is now international Jihadist terriorist campaign aimed at the US, so there was no 9 11. George W Bush has no political cover to invade Iraq. Although in this the days of the Arab Spring Saddam is in trouble like his neighbor the dictator of Syria.
 
Another thing many more survivors of the holocaust want to immigrate to the US. That sets off more of a debate about immigration restrictions.
 
The Middle East obiviouly is radically different. It is much more peaceful and much less the focus of world attention. There is still a Suez crisis, with France and Britian still attacking Egypt and still pressured to back off by the President Eisenhower. Saddam Huessian ( I think the history of Iraq is still the same) still invades Kuwait and is still kicked out in Opearation Desert Storm. He is still in power because there is now international Jihadist terriorist campaign aimed at the US, so there was no 9 11. George W Bush has no political cover to invade Iraq. Although in this the days of the Arab Spring Saddam is in trouble like his neighbor the dictator of Syria.

with a POD of 1897 I think the butterflies would undo much of the future.
 
with a POD of 1897 I think the butterflies would undo much of the future.

I think you'd have to go back at least a little further. From what I can see he'd already written Der Judenstaat by 1897. Herzl was supposedly influenced by Karl Lueger so you may have to alter Lueger's history as well.
 
Instead of Woodrow Wilson's dangerous, if not openly racist, views we see Taft drop out of the 1912 election and Teddy Roosevelt winning a third term as president.

As a result the extreme crackdown on immigration to the United States does not take place or is delayed/greatly reduced. Most of the Jews who would otherwise have been Hitler's victims move to the United States in the 1920s and 1930s and other nations will take in Jewish refugees understanding that they will only be staying until ships for NYC arrive. In the 1950s most Jews from the Middle East follow, along with the quarter million or so followers of an obscure ideology called zionism...the population of the United States is at least 400 million.
 
with a POD of 1897 I think the butterflies would undo much of the future.

I wouldn't be that butterfly-happy. A PoD doesn't just create new randomness as if the trajectories set in the prior several hundred years didn't exist. France and Britain would still be the basically same Imperial powers vying for dominance in the middle east. There is no particular reason to believe there would not be a WW1 and WW2 with the same nations involved and same outcome. Zionism is not an earth-shattering movement like Communism or Fascism. It was a minor social movement that affected only a few major nations, one ethnic group, and only a few nations in the near east in a direct way. There would still be conflict between western imperial powers and Arab nationalism. The west would still first colonize and then curry favor with oil-rich Arab kingdoms to secure oil reserves. No Zionism would have no real effect on the rise of Nazism and the eventual holocaust - these events were little, if at all, influenced by Zionism. To me, the most interesting possibility would be a widely different relationship between the US and Arab nationalists. The USA has always been the world's strongest supporter of Israel, and absent a Jewish state the US felt obligated to protect and preserve, America might take a much more flexible view regarding Arab nationalism. Also, absent an Israel supported by the US as a supposedly "crusader" outpost, anti-western Islamic fundamentalism might not develop, or at least be more muted, more to the fringe, and not particularly anti-American.
 
I wouldn't be that butterfly-happy. A PoD doesn't just create new randomness as if the trajectories set in the prior several hundred years didn't exist. France and Britain would still be the basically same Imperial powers vying for dominance in the middle east. There is no particular reason to believe there would not be a WW1 and WW2 with the same nations involved and same outcome. Zionism is not an earth-shattering movement like Communism or Fascism. It was a minor social movement that affected only a few major nations, one ethnic group, and only a few nations in the near east in a direct way. There would still be conflict between western imperial powers and Arab nationalism. The west would still first colonize and then curry favor with oil-rich Arab kingdoms to secure oil reserves. No Zionism would have no real effect on the rise of Nazism and the eventual holocaust - these events were little, if at all, influenced by Zionism. To me, the most interesting possibility would be a widely different relationship between the US and Arab nationalists. The USA has always been the world's strongest supporter of Israel, and absent a Jewish state the US felt obligated to protect and preserve, America might take a much more flexible view regarding Arab nationalism. Also, absent an Israel supported by the US as a supposedly "crusader" outpost, anti-western Islamic fundamentalism might not develop, or at least be more muted, more to the fringe, and not particularly anti-American.


my main point by saying that is the idea that in say 1956 with no Israel at all there would be a Suez crisis is a stretch, and that Saddam Huessian would get into power in Iraq with no Israel (no 1948 war, Six Day War, Yom Kippur War etc) is.... yeah, Zionism has a lot to do with Arab Nationalism, I'm not saying that no Zionism equals no Arab Nationalism, but I do think it'd be very different, no 1948 war would mean that politics in Egypt would be a lot different, maybe the Monarch lasts thanks to British, French and American support, and we see something like Iran happen latter on, I do think WWI is very likely and where there is a WWI there will likely be a WWII, and if the butterflies don't get a bomb to land on Hitler in WWI a holocaust is likely, no Zionism might make it worse as the idea of a Jewish homeland wouldn't be popularized so the final solution might be reached sooner in the war.
 
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