WI: Zheng He discovers the Americas

Precisely. And not exploration for exploration´s sake, Henry the Navigator style. Mount Penglai holds the secret to eternal life - and not just that: Qin Shi Huangdi, the First Emperor, had been looking for Mount Penglai as well, or rather had sent people to look for it in his stead, so if the Yongle Emperor´s underlings found it, that would mean he succeeded at something that even Qin Shi Huangdi had failed at, i.e. a massive boost to his prestige as an Emperor. I´d say he´d go down in history as the great Emperor ever, but in fact he´d simply be the last Emperor ever, what with having gained eternal life and ruling China forever now.

You may have better luck with the attempted discovery of Fusang. If there are pessimists in the Emperor's court they are going to try to discourage this.

The fleets would still have to be able to sustain themselves over LONG voyages. And once it becomes clear that there are no real barbarian nations in the North/East beyond Japan, they´d either have to carry *everything* they need for the entire voyage, or the means to acquire it - they could even be expected to set up at least temporary bases to repair the ships and restock supplies. And from there it is a far smaller step to setting up a permanent colony if they have to than from the "handful of shipwrecked sailors in the middle of nowhere" scenario that seems to be the basis of the "not gonna happen ever" judgements here.

The OTL fleets consisted of hundreds of ships filled with soldiers, artisians, merchants, etcetc for showing Ming hegemony to the nations of South East Asia. Those are not going to be necessary for these voyage so there will be a more compact fleet, maybe a dozen, which is much more sustainable for long voyages into a mostly empty ocean across the Pacific. Once things get going we may see Treasure fleet ala Spanish gold convoys.

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That silver came mainly from two places: Zacatecas in Mexico, and Potosi in Bolivia; a Chinese expat presence in California might bring the former into its sphere of diplomatic/trade influence even without outright conquest, and a Mesoamerican power backed by the Chinese expats in California just *might* be able to hold onto Zacatecas against the Spanish.

What about discovery of the Inca?

San Francisco would be all well and fine for the location of an administrative capital for a full fledged colony but the region is just too well populated by natives for a starter settlement. Another place along the coastline would be better served as an interim colony before population concerns lead to looking for better places like San Francisco (and there is manpower to oust the locals).
 

Sir Chaos

Banned
You may have better luck with the attempted discovery of Fusang. If there are pessimists in the Emperor's court they are going to try to discourage this.

As I´ve stated in the opening post, the initial intention would be to find Mount Penglai. They mount expedition after expedition after searching further and further, generally out of a combination of what we would call the Sunk Cost Fallacy and the idea that, if Mount Penglai was easy to find, it would have been found long ago.

Onces they have found the Americas, yes, Fusang becomes an issue; the North American Pacific Coast is roughly where Han dynasty tradition places Fusang, so even if the preparations for the sixth voyage do not assume they might be sailing to Fusang, the returnees from that voyage will certainly claim to have found Fusang.

The OTL fleets consisted of hundreds of ships filled with soldiers, artisians, merchants, etcetc for showing Ming hegemony to the nations of South East Asia. Those are not going to be necessary for these voyage so there will be a more compact fleet, maybe a dozen, which is much more sustainable for long voyages into a mostly empty ocean across the Pacific. Once things get going we may see Treasure fleet ala Spanish gold convoys.

This fleet is going to need support personnel - carpenters, sailmakers, blacksmiths, physicians and so on and so forth - instead of artisans and merchants, because they´ll be needed to keep ships and crew going, and there won´t be any to be found among the savages in the far North and East. There´ll be fewer soldiers than in the OTL fleets, but still enough to drive off raiders and such, probably a higher proportion of cavalry than OTL.

What about discovery of the Inca?

The Inca are a lot further South than the Mesoamerican; the Chinese will come in contact with them soon enough, but not for anything except long-distance trade for a considerable time. The Chinese certainly won´t get as closely involved with the Incas as with the Aztecs or Mayans; I´m thinking the Spanish will get to the Inca in force before the Chinese do.

San Francisco would be all well and fine for the location of an administrative capital for a full fledged colony but the region is just too well populated by natives for a starter settlement. Another place along the coastline would be better served as an interim colony before population concerns lead to looking for better places like San Francisco (and there is manpower to oust the locals).

Just how densely populated was the SF area in the 15th century? Anyway, a different location for the initial settlement is certainly feasible. The OTL Los Angeles or San Diego area, maybe? Baja California? Not *too* close to the Mesoamericans, but not too far, either - which is why I´m ruling out the Oregon and Washington coasts, never mind Canada.
 
This is vaguely related to the topic, but does anyone have any idea as to what Chinese naming conventions for settlements/natural features would be? Would they devise new names for them, use indigenous names for the settlements, or a mix of both? Using indigenous names feels a bit awkward when the Chinese language is considered.

San Francisco would be all well and fine for the location of an administrative capital for a full fledged colony but the region is just too well populated by natives for a starter settlement. Another place along the coastline would be better served as an interim colony before population concerns lead to looking for better places like San Francisco (and there is manpower to oust the locals).

If San Francisco isn't good enough, that's a problem, considering there aren't a lot of solid harbours on the West Coast of the Americas. I'm pretty sure the ports along the Puget Sound were even more densely populated than California, Oregon Coast has the Columbia estuary, but same issues, I believe. It also has a few other ports (like Coos Bay) which are very secluded and difficult to get inland, but might work. California north of San Francisco area has Humboldt Bay too, which might be somewhat useful. South of the Bay Area, you do have San Diego, after all. There's a few good sites in Baja California which have very low density of natives, but that's because water happens to be at a premium there.
 
This is vaguely related to the topic, but does anyone have any idea as to what Chinese naming conventions for settlements/natural features would be? Would they devise new names for them, use indigenous names for the settlements, or a mix of both? Using indigenous names feels a bit awkward when the Chinese language is considered.
When it comes to cities built near rivers, the city is generally named as [place] [yin/yang]. Take Luoyang for example, it is located to the south of the Luo river, thus it is named Luoyang.
 
When it comes to cities built near rivers, the city is generally named as [place] [yin/yang]. Take Luoyang for example, it is located to the south of the Luo river, thus it is named Luoyang.

That's when you get the problem of California rivers--go for indigenous name (which seem to be hard to find for many of them), go for something else? I'm somewhat assuming the Chinese would get a new term roughly meaning "arroyo" or "wadi"

Then there's the naming of indigenous people. Would they invent new Chinese characters for any of them, perhaps using the derogatory "dog", "insect", etc. radicals which they used for certain Asian ethnic groups? Transliterate their names, according to their own ethnonym or a neihbouring group's term?
 
That's when you get the problem of California rivers--go for indigenous name (which seem to be hard to find for many of them), go for something else? I'm somewhat assuming the Chinese would get a new term roughly meaning "arroyo" or "wadi"
They'd probably invent new names for rivers, Chinese states have traditionally given new names to newly conquered places.
Then there's the naming of indigenous people. Would they invent new Chinese characters for any of them, perhaps using the derogatory "dog", "insect", etc. radicals which they used for certain Asian ethnic groups? Transliterate their names, according to their own ethnonym or a neihbouring group's term?
Not sure where "dog" and "insect" were used OTL. I'd say they'd call the natives 东夷(Eastern Barbarians), 东蛮 would also work, or straight up call them the Fusangi, 扶桑国人 or something similar.
 
I mean for specific ethnic groups (Miwok, Yokuts, etc.). Like the term for the Yao people (for instance) once using the character "猺" with the dog radical.

Although for the natives as a whole, I once coined the term "赤人", literally "red people" as analogy to "白人", "white people". That was for Japanese in the New World though, it might be "紅人" in Chinese (same thing).
 
I mean for specific ethnic groups (Miwok, Yokuts, etc.). Like the term for the Yao people (for instance) once using the character "猺" with the dog radical.

Although for the natives as a whole, I once coined the term "赤人", literally "red people" as analogy to "白人", "white people". That was for Japanese in the New World though, it might be "紅人" in Chinese (same thing).
China has traditionally Sinified names for foreign nations, but the native American languages being neither Sino Tibetian or Altaic, the trnslations are either going to come out stupidly funny of funnily stupid. However I doubt if Chinese explorers would really care much about identifying the individual peoples, for example, the Mongolic tribes were simply named the 北狄(Northern Barbarians) in the Zhou dynasty, and were never truly identified as separate ethnic groups until the Han. Given the technological gap between Han explorers and natives in this ATL, the explorers might not have to do so either.
 
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Sir Chaos

Banned
That naming discussion is very interesting - please, continue. I just can´t contribute, because I don´t know any Chinese.
 
From my own TL on the subject in 2010. It did kind of get out of hand so I played around with the idea in a more relaxed manner.

To Name A Land

The name of the eastern continent has vexed many a atlas maker throughout its history as it seems that many have wanted to call the untamed lands for what they saw or what they wanted from the land. In this short piece we will go over the different names used for the land and why its present monkier is used.

Mei-Guo: 美国 Beautiful Country
The usage of this term for the Eastern Continent was first expressed by none other then Jin Ma, the discoverer of the vast landscape even before any other names came into place. Mei being the word for beauty in Chinese, 美 such the name is a simple expression by Jin Ma of the beauty he witnessed of the natural landscape, devoid of civilization (for the most part). This name is also expressed for the European term of, America for the continent based on the name of Amerigo Vespucci, a Italian explorer.

Jin Guo 金国 Gold Country
This usage came into major use in various periods and is one of the most common terms for the country as expressed by many of the early Golden Gate or Dajinmen's governors and rulers and every goldseeker following the discovery of gold. This is the main nickname for the area surrounding the Golden Gate to the Dongshan Mountains as it is expressed as a usage of the golden hills of the Golden Gate, the Gold of the Dongshan Mountains, and the family name of the Jin family the founders of Sino Civlization in the New World. A fourth reason for this expression could also be the wealth of the country for its commerical enterprises.

Ye Guo 野国 Open Country
This term of usage is the offical name of the eastern continent and the Republic of Yeguo, of the Open Country or of America as expressed by European cartographers. The name derives in part from the Yelamu people who inhabited the Bay Area previous to Chinese colonization. This is the most common expression for the Oriental name of the eastern continent and of the Republic centered around Dajinmen or the Golden Gate city that is the first Sino city on the continent and the capital of the Repulic of Yeguo, and greatest city on the western coast of the continent. Yeshangguo 野生国 and Yemenguo 野蛮国 is also a common name for the land, as a term of negative expression by those from China usually expressing the independent and anti-confucian mindset of the Yeguo people as brutal and uncivilized. As such the nicknames were used by the Yeguo people as a source of pride following the independence of Yeguo after the fall of the Ming in China and the Shanghai Conflict, where Yeguo representatives declined to join the Republic of China.
 

Sir Chaos

Banned
From my own TL on the subject in 2010. It did kind of get out of hand so I played around with the idea in a more relaxed manner.

Thank you.

"Dajinmen" means "Golden Gate"? I assume that is the name of the Chinese-founded city in the location of OTL San Francisco?

Right now I´m leaning towards using all a variety of names:

Fusang for the North American continent - not necessarily because the explorer believe to have found the actual mythical place, but because it is located roughly where the Book of Liang said it should be, AND because it would make their efforts seem more worthwhile
Mei Guo for OTL Central/Southern California, the region where permanent Chinese settlements are established; I´ve been to the Bay Area, "Beautiful Country" fits
Ye Guo for the rest of North America, especially OTL Canada and Alaska, for the lack of civilized inhabitants (Mei Guo does NOT lack civilized inhabitants - it has Chinese now ;))
Jin Guo for Mesoamerica, given the wealth of the civilisations there

Likewise, the natives would be called by a variety of names:
Eastern Barbarians for the non-civilized natives of OTL US and Canada
Fusangi for the Mesoamericans that would end up allied/friendly with the Chinese
some sinicized version of "Aztec"/"people from Aztlan" for those Mesoamericans opposed to the Chinese, be they actual Aztecs or not, as a political statement that these are intruders, barbarian invaders from elsewhere comparable to the Mongols and Manchus
 
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