WI: Zheng He Arrives in Europe in 1424

What I find most interesting is what the Europeans think of Zheng He's religion. He is a Muslim after all, a religion that is viewed as 'evil' to the Christians at the time. Especially in Spain, a nation that at the time of Zheng He were just driving the Granadans to the sea back into north Africa. Would Zheng He try and help the Emirate stop the Spanish or would he just move along.? He did bring soldiers with him, and many of the people he brought were Chinese Muslim, many of whom settled across the Indian Ocean, leaving traces of Chinese in Indonesia, Malaysia, and possibly Africa (I read it somewhere, I know it.) This gives me a great idea - what if large amounts of Chinese settled in Muslim Spain and Morocco! :eek: :cool: Or even Christian Europe! :rolleyes:

No, Zheng He was on official business for the emperor. He's not going to get into local disputes with the natives half a world away, even if some of them are loosely connected to him by religion.

I wonder if the Spanish horse might be something of interest to China. There is precedent for this. During the Han dynasty an emperor sent a 100,000 man army into Central Asia just to get a few Turkman horses for the breeding program.
 
Fascinating thread.

Ming ships were far in advance of western ships of the time. While the size of Zheng He's treasure ships is probably exaggerated, they were still much larger than anything seen in Europe since the Romans.

  • They could sail into the wind
  • The battened sails were resistant to major tearing
  • The nature of the sail plan took advantage of aerodynamics to create "slots", which increase sail power and efficiency
  • They had flood resistant transverse bulkheads, possible watertight.
  • Fore and aft compartments may have been free flooding which could aid in stability, reducing pounding and pitching
  • While having very high freeboard, they also had shorter masts. This could have lowered the center of effort and reduced the effect of heeling.
  • The use of leeboards added to directional stability and mitigated the effect of crosswinds due to the high freeboard.
  • The fenestrated rudder reduced the effort required in steering.
There are more areas where the Chinese were way ahead of the Europeans in marine technology. They had been navigating the Indian Ocean for centuries and were accomplished mariners.

Regarding the condition of the crew upon arrival in the west, I think that they might have been in quite good shape, considering that it was not uncommon to grow produce onboard during long voyages. In any case, the Europeans were familiar with the effect of a long sea voyage on crews health and moral, so I don't think they would have been too surprised by a tired crew. Since the fleet contained water ships and supply ships, it is more likely that the fleet would arrive in fairly fresh condition.

The Chinese also brought equine carriers and had their own horses. They had long exposure to Arabia and India and were probably familiar with their very fine breeds, so perhaps the only horses they might be interested in were European draft animals (I don't know if the Chinese had any equivalent).

The wealth and power of Zheng He's fleet would have had a massive effect on Europe I expect. I believe that it might have even spurred exploration westward as nations, now more certain of the wealth of the east tried to find a way to get there. The Portuguese, who were already wandering down the west coast of Africa, would continue in that direction because they would know it could be done. Perhaps the English or French, wanting a piece of the pie wpiould have followed their fishermen, already on the Grand Banks, west and discovered the New World earlier.

I think the effect on China would have been more restrained, but the Ming's might not have been able to ignore these barbarians for long.

This is a great WI.
 
I realize I am not looking at the same voyage as the thread proposed, but I think that this scenario may be as likely as the Chinese rounding the Cape of Good Hope and continuing all the way to Portugal. Just some musings.

The Chinese didn't do things in small ways. ZH was a master administrator. You can be sure there were accomplished shipwrights in his expeditions. He had no shortage of manpower.

WI on voyage 5, 1417 - 1419 Zheng He had decided to continue up the coast of Arabia into the Red Sea toward Mecca?

He decides, since he is so close to Europe, to sail to Suez where he orders several of the ships to be dismantled and transported to the Nile (only about 100 miles away).

The ships are re-assembled and he sails into the Med, arriving off Venice, Genoa or Constantinople in 1420.

There is still an Emperor, It's 2 years before the first Ottoman siege...
 
I agree with snotters dad first post.
The self image of the Europeans was not of superiority because of beiing europeans, there was not even a slightest sight of nationalism, but the Church or christian belive was thought to be the only one
It is not the common european or noble man who bordred about the Chineese, they were probably flabergasted and willing to trade, in a n attemped to get better of it.
I mean how would the Church react, this was an institution which was focused to keep the people dumb and ingnorant in order to keep their influence and power.
A treasure fleet or even a small flotilla of it would undermine the power of the Church much earlier than OTL 16th century.
 

Hendryk

Banned
One needs to find a good reason for Zheng He to go to Europe in the first place. He already had a well-charted route to Egypt via the Red Sea, and what does Europe, or even North Africa, have that is worth rounding the Cape of Good Hope for? My suggestion, since these voyages were motivated by prestige rather than trade, may be to get in touch with the Ottomans. European ports would be just a way station for the fleet.
Would Zheng He's religion be an issue? Unless he gets out the prayer mat in the middle of a meeting, would it come up?

What I find most interesting is what the Europeans think of Zheng He's religion. He is a Muslim after all, a religion that is viewed as 'evil' to the Christians at the time.
Don't make too much of Zheng He being Muslim. He played it up for PR reasons when he was visiting Muslim countries, but the rest of the time he was a lukewarm believer at best, and he knew when to keep his religion to himself. Back in Nanjing, he financed the building of a temple to Mazu, Taoist goddess of the sea--and he prayed in it as well.
 
I mean how would the Church react, this was an institution which was focused to keep the people dumb and ingnorant in order to keep their influence and power.
A treasure fleet or even a small flotilla of it would undermine the power of the Church much earlier than OTL 16th century.

The same church that ran schools for both girls and boys in England until Henry VIII seized control of everything, all but ending female education in England for centuries?
 
The same church that ran schools for both girls and boys in England until Henry VIII seized control of everything, all but ending female education in England for centuries?

Possible, but I was refereng to the fate of Copernicus, which happened later, but never the less is a prime example of how the Church oppressed and condemed, ideas an or thougths which were not in line withe the policies or ideas of the Church. In most cases you can call i; to keep the people dumb and ignorant .
 
Possible, but I was refereng to the fate of Copernicus, which happened later, but never the less is a prime example of how the Church oppressed and condemed, ideas an or thougths which were not in line withe the policies or ideas of the Church. In most cases you can call i; to keep the people dumb and ignorant .

My point was the Catholic Church at the time was not as evil and nasty as you're claiming.

In the example I gave, it was the Church that was educating people and the secular king, in his greed and lust for power, that confiscated all their money and, in consequence, all but destroyed female education in England for generations.


RCC good, Henry VIII bad.

And Copernicus did not suffer any terrible fate that I was aware of. The Church complained about him, but that was it.

I think you're confusing Copernicus with Galileo, who did get screwed over, but at that point, it had become an ego contest and not a scientific one.
 
In AGCEEP EU II, I think China can get gold from the Mamelukes. It's not worth the trouble to explore past Fernando Po with Zheng He or his successor.

I always liked greater European/Med/Middle Eastern-Chinese contacts.
 
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My point was the Catholic Church at the time was not as evil and nasty as you're claiming.

In the example I gave, it was the Church that was educating people and the secular king, in his greed and lust for power, that confiscated all their money and, in consequence, all but destroyed female education in England for generations.


RCC good, Henry VIII bad.

And Copernicus did not suffer any terrible fate that I was aware of. The Church complained about him, but that was it.

I think you're confusing Copernicus with Galileo, who did get screwed over, but at that point, it had become an ego contest and not a scientific one.
:) Point taken, the kings, dukes, counts and other noble men of Europe were not holier, and only interested in greed and power.
Correct I confused the two men.
Any way, how would the Church of Rome ( and Avignon? were there not 2 Popes at that time?) react on the arival of non christians, moslims, budhist, all with a confusian way of thinking, who were much more advanced than the Europeans
 
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Fascinating thread.

Ming ships were far in advance of western ships of the time. While the size of Zheng He's treasure ships is probably exaggerated, they were still much larger than anything seen in Europe since the Romans.

  • They could sail into the wind
  • The battened sails were resistant to major tearing
  • The nature of the sail plan took advantage of aerodynamics to create "slots", which increase sail power and efficiency
  • They had flood resistant transverse bulkheads, possible watertight.
  • Fore and aft compartments may have been free flooding which could aid in stability, reducing pounding and pitching
  • While having very high freeboard, they also had shorter masts. This could have lowered the center of effort and reduced the effect of heeling.
  • The use of leeboards added to directional stability and mitigated the effect of crosswinds due to the high freeboard.
  • The fenestrated rudder reduced the effort required in steering.
There are more areas where the Chinese were way ahead of the Europeans in marine technology. They had been navigating the Indian Ocean for centuries and were accomplished mariners.

Regarding the condition of the crew upon arrival in the west, I think that they might have been in quite good shape, considering that it was not uncommon to grow produce onboard during long voyages. In any case, the Europeans were familiar with the effect of a long sea voyage on crews health and moral, so I don't think they would have been too surprised by a tired crew. Since the fleet contained water ships and supply ships, it is more likely that the fleet would arrive in fairly fresh condition.

The Chinese also brought equine carriers and had their own horses. They had long exposure to Arabia and India and were probably familiar with their very fine breeds, so perhaps the only horses they might be interested in were European draft animals (I don't know if the Chinese had any equivalent).

The wealth and power of Zheng He's fleet would have had a massive effect on Europe I expect. I believe that it might have even spurred exploration westward as nations, now more certain of the wealth of the east tried to find a way to get there. The Portuguese, who were already wandering down the west coast of Africa, would continue in that direction because they would know it could be done. Perhaps the English or French, wanting a piece of the pie wpiould have followed their fishermen, already on the Grand Banks, west and discovered the New World earlier.

I think the effect on China would have been more restrained, but the Ming's might not have been able to ignore these barbarians for long.

This is a great WI.

The treasure junks were very impressive, as they were designed to be, but they were not the slightest bit cost effective. The European merchants are going to tot up the numbers, laugh, and then continue building ships that can go places and make money, and thus lay the foundations for more lasting influence.

Maybe incorporate some of the ideas of sails, but a lot of the developments you list are either expensive overengineering on the stormy Atlantic, or extra weight on the placid Mediterranean.
 
The treasure junks were very impressive, as they were designed to be, but they were not the slightest bit cost effective. The European merchants are going to tot up the numbers, laugh, and then continue building ships that can go places and make money, and thus lay the foundations for more lasting influence.

Maybe incorporate some of the ideas of sails, but a lot of the developments you list are either expensive overengineering on the stormy Atlantic, or extra weight on the placid Mediterranean.

For the puny European economies they would not be cost effective for sure. The Europeans were nowhere near being able to match the technology. But the Chinese had much greater resources to call upon. Additionally, these ships were suited to the stormy Pacific and Indian Oceans, where the Chinese were regular traders at that time. So they could have survived nicely in the Atlantic, not that I feel the Atlantic is placid. Look at the wind speed of typhoons that regularly strike the coast of Asia and you will see that the Chinese were familiar with violent weather at sea.

The Portuguese, Venetians, Genoese and Spaniards would have been awestruck at the size and scale of the treasure ships and the fleet itself. The engineering was not overdone (the scale might have been, but it was the Middle Kingdom after all).

These were all factors that made Chinese ships more advanced than European ships.

The Mediterranean is not that placid. If it was, why are there so many wrecks, so many storied storms at sea. Why do the winds have names that we give to expensive sports cars.

The Europeans would have considered the skills and technology needed to create such massive ships as near magic, and the skill to sail them so far as nearly supernatural. They were a superstitious lot after all who still believed in sea monsters.

I stand by the maritime superiority of the East.

One more point regarding naval architecture. The hull form used by the Chinese appears to be more easily driven and with greater initial stability, with greater carrying capacity. The Europeans were still (and for long after) using the "Cods Head / Mackerel tail" approach to ship design which resulted in a bluff bow to smash through the waves. Not the best from a hydrodynamic perspective. Junks, even though they have a square bow at deck level, tend to have a relatively fine entry, which improves sea-keeping. The greater beam to length ratio would have impacted the initial stability positively as well. The aerodynamc characteristics of the Junk rig combined with the more efficient hull form and the additional LWL (length water line) would have enabled them to sail circles around the Caravels of the day...literally
 
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But in any case. I was simply providing a visual metaphor that while Europe might well want to learn from Zheng He, and while Zheng He personally might want to return it, the Ming court would be dismissive of reports of yet another set of distant barbarians. After all, Jesuits started appearing in China only about a century later, and what impact was ever seen of that?

Incredibly significant, round eye.

Constructing artillery? Medical transmission, even if less than Japan? Clockwork (rapidly copied by the Chinese)?
 
Incredibly significant, round eye.

Constructing artillery? Medical transmission, even if less than Japan? Clockwork (rapidly copied by the Chinese)?

Interestingly the book I'm just working through on Chinese history, when reading the Manchu replacing the Ming had some comments on this. Appears that both sides used artillery fairly heavily and the Ming got a lot of advice from the Jesuits in designing/building their cannons. However they faced the problem that the cannons were too large to mount on the wall. In one case an attempt to build extensions to the walls to make room caused chaos when the Manchu's attacked and in the panic a lot of those extensions collapsed causing much death and confusion.

This all suggests that by this time China was some way behind the west as the fortifications were basically medieval in design, high, hard and thin, rather than the sort of lower, broader and soften trace Italia defences that Europe developed in the early 1500's. Similarly with the Great Wall, which was very much a Ming construction. Whether this was because they hadn't faced serious threat for a while and hence designs had stagnated or whether the strong anti-military bent of much Confucius thought hindered development of such ideas.

Steve
 
Whether this was because they hadn't faced serious threat for a while and hence designs had stagnated or whether the strong anti-military bent of much Confucius thought hindered development of such ideas.

Steve

The former. Who was going to be assaulting Beijing with heavy artillery?
 
The former. Who was going to be assaulting Beijing with heavy artillery?

Faeelin

I'm not sure when the Manchu got siege artillery but they definitely had it by the time they conquered much of China very quickly. Hence they should have has some awareness of the threat, especially since as I say they had some artillery themselves.

Steve
 
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