WI Yugoslavia survives?

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abc123

Banned
Very interesting points. Though I would say that not anything leading to the break-up is a "mistake", because the break-up apparently in a lot of cases was the core interest of those purporting the "mistakes".

The recollection of events is very interesting, because from a German point of view, Yugoslavia is a blind spot until war was imminent in 1992. It is interesting to see, how many of the decisions you mention, already disbanded the idea of a united Yugoslavia but really fit to a loose confederation.

On letting Slovenia secede; yes, the more I read about it, the more audacious the gamble of these heavily outnumbered and outgunned folks seems. And all they got since 1992 were rewards for their behaviour. ;)

On the presidential election, I agree with yugo-aesop. A different election would lead to different voting patterns giving the silent true "Yugoslavs" a better chance to articulate. I.e., even if a "Unity" candidate would only get 30% in a first presidential round nationwide, he would still be able to outnumber single seperatists, even if they would e.g. have 60% of e.g. the Serbian vote.

So, if a second round means that the "Unity" candidate runs against a Serbian or Croat separatist, he is likely to pick up the votes of the separatists which don't share the ethnicity of the Separatist-candidate.

Yugoslavia had a 8-member Presidency, 1 from evrey republic/province, not only 1 President.
 
The question is not if Jugoslavia could have survived longer, but actually how it actually survived that long anyway. It has been an artificial political body all along.

The sh*thole the Serbs are in for the last 150 years is mostly thanks to Garashanin. Garashanin was a minister of the interior in the middle of the 19th century, he could be considered the father of serbian ultra-nationalism. He wrote a small book entitled Načertanije (or Prescription, Waypoints if you like) for the policy of the Serbian state. Basically what it said is following, put short:
- Serbia is a small, insignificant and isolated country
- in order for us not to get assimilated by a foreign power we have to enlarge. But how do we do it?
- we are southern slavs, so we have to unite all the southern slavs around us, but this won't be that easy: first off the Bulgarians are the most numerous southern slavic people, so that turns them in a major obsticle for us and we have to assimilate them, building on our common religion; then come the Croats and Slovenians, they are catholics, so our job would be harder. BUT: although Serbs and Croats have been traditionally hostile they have an uneasy and increasingly problematic relationship with the Magyars (Hungarians); the Slovenians on their side ahev an uneasy relationship with the Austrians. So what we should do is that while not saying a word about our different religions we should promote our common southern slav ancestry. Then come the Bosniaks, who although converted to Islam are also Slavs, so with them we have the greatest chance for assimilation.

This book has been secretely circulating among the Serbian politicians for a long, long time and has been the major political doctrine ever since its printing until early 21st century. The first point as already mentioned was Bulgaria. The Serbs tried to convince all the western Bulgarians that they were actually Serbs. The constant failure in that direction didn't discourage them. Even before we became independent we achieved our own separate church (The Bulgarian Exarchate). So the Sultan oredered that a plebiscite should be held in all the European municipalities of the Ottoman Empire, which have a slavic eastern orthodox population. Then every municipality where a majority has voted in favour of the exarchate was added to it. This is the result (the red area):
Bulgarian-Exarchate-1870-1913.jpg

As a matter of fact the voting was mostly around 90-95% in favour. Please note that Nis has voted in favour.

Then the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-1878 started and while the Russian and the Romanian armies carried all the brunt of fighting the Serbs entered the war just as it was already won in order to have a claim of being a co-belligerent and have an excuse to take the Nis area. So when they contacted the Russians, the latter have already realised they dont have the strength to go into a diplomatic or, God forbid, a prolonged military conflict. So the logical solution for St. Petersburg was to appeace Belgrade, by granting it Nis. This proved to be irrelevant as the Serbs laid claims for the whole of Western Bulgaria all the way to present-day Pazardzhik. So in order to underline the bulgarian character of the lands claimed the Parliament in Tarnovo voted to move the capital to Sofia, this is the reason this city is the Bulgarian capital today. The Serbs realised that, for what they did they turned the newly-liberated bulgarian state in a mortal enemy so this is why they always tried to hurt its interests (the war of 1885, The Balkan Wars, the serbian actions in Macedonia, the Balkan Entente etc. etc. etc.) So in the east the serbian policy was to protect the things they have achieved.

Then comes Croatia. Ever since the Croats converted to Roman catholicism and the Serbs to Eastern orthodox christianity their relations have been hostile. While the Serbs tried to setlle down in the Ottoman Empire (the Sultan married a serbian princess, then at the Battle of Ankara her brother was a loyal turkish ally, saved Sultan Beyazid's sons, in the following turkish civil war, which was a feud between them for the throne, constantly changed sides and most probably saved the empire by opposing the Balkan rulers in their uprisings.) Then in the following decades many serbian families voluntarily sent their sons to the Janissary Corps with the idea that this way they were giving them a kick-start to top political and military positions of the empire. I am not implying that all the Serbs were that way, but those who kept on fighting simply left for the Austrian Military Border or to the romanian principalities or to Russia. So Serbia was actually built by those who settled down. Croats on the other side always kept on fighting the Turks, and this is an esteem they had, which gave them in their eyes a moral superiority over the Serbs. Not to mention that they had their own doctrine to unite all the southern slavs around themselves, which wasn't as nearly as reactionary as the serb one and had a much greater chance to succeed. Croats kept a fighting tradition and they were actually also mercenaries like the Swiss, although on a much smaller scale. Then when the Magyars rebelled against Vienna the Croats supported the Austrians. So after that the Croats had fairly good political positions in Austria-Hungary, although being part of the hungarian kingdom. So around 1914 if you have asked them which way should they go: Stay in A-H, secede to an independent Croat state or join Serbia you would probably get 75% / 25% / 0%.

Slovenia is very different than that. They never were an independent political entity until they gained independence in 1991. They also didn't have a class of slovenian scholars, or statesmen of their own. The composition of the population until the mid-19th century was a german higher class of major landowners , statesmen, lawyers, military men etc., a slovenian lower class of peasants and inbetween an extremely thin and insignificant class ot some italian artists, middle european artisans etc. Until then the Slovenians haven't realised themselves as being a nation themselves. And what is even worse for the ideas of Garasanin, they didn't even consider themselves as southern slavs. When the Slovenian Enlightment began they saw themselves as very close to Bohemians (Czechs), rather than close to Croats or to Serbians. The Slovenians even took the Idea and the name itself of the Bohemian youth sport and cultural movement - the "Sokol". So they started forming their indigenious slovenian elite, but by the time the A-H Empire collapsed they weren't ready just yet.

Bosnians had an independent country at the time before the Turkish conquest. This was a result of the independent Bosnian church, itself based on the bulgarian Bogomil sect, which was so utterly opposed to the Eastern Orthodox Christianity, that when the Turks came to our lands the bogomils converted to Roman Catholicism or to Islam, and didn't revert back to orthodoxal christianity. The same thing happened there. By that time a "croat" was rather a southern slav catholic, so those who chose catholicism actually joined the croat people. The majority of Bosniaks chose Islam with the simple idea to stay out of trouble. So the Turks kinda hoped that the same way they will assimilate them. But this didn't happen, they insisted on their distinct slav nature. So from that moment on until our present day the Bosniaks have always been outsiders - to the Turks, to the Austrians, to the Croats and to the Serbs. So to them it didn't matter much who their master would be when they were always second-class citizens.

This is the background. The official serbian position is: "When WWI ended both the Croats and the Slovenians voluntarily joined our state, so we were right. What right do they have to break away, when we didn't force them to join us?" In fact both catholic nations would rather form a state resembling Czechoslovakia. The problem for them was that the Czechs had nationalist leaders in exile, working against Vienna. Both the Czechs and the Slovaks deserted in masses to the Russians. Croats and Slovenians on the other side fought entussiastically against the Italians. If they formed their country it would be considered a defeated one, like Hungary for example. So they joined Serbia simply to be considered part of the Entente, and Bosnia and Herzegovina went along with them without the right to say a word. Both the other states, that could have laid claims on B-H were defeated countries.

Those people simply decided to give the Kingdom of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs a try. But from the start it turned out that the new state was considered actually a Greater Serbia and was intended to be governed that way. The more Croats, Slovenians and Bosniaks drifted away, the harsher dictatorship was imposed by Belgrade. Purely violent force was everything that kept them in line and when that force collapsed... well, we know about the Independent Croat State, the Bosnian Waffen-SS units etc. The jugoslav partisans weren't at all the force they pretended to be, they just existed with their role being purely symbolic. They got Jugoslavia on a silver plate the same way the Kingdom of Serbia got it after the previous world war. The southern part of the country was liberated by the Bulgarian army and the northern part - by the 3rd Ukraininan Front, of which the Bulgarian country was part. There are numerous memoires of bulgarian veterans that say: "we fought the Germans, pushed them away and then out the blue came the partisans stating - we are allies now, but you were fascists until yesterday, so you wait here as we enter the village." So this is the legend of Partisan fighting power. Bulgaria was part of the Socialist block and was ordered to shut its mouth and support the official jugoslav position of "brotherly fighting together". The Croats were in an even worse position, as they fought on the side of the Reich until the end. So did Hungary, and so it had to leave any claims on Vojevodina (where a magyar ethnic majority lived). The Slovenians were OK with Jugoslavia just for the moment, as it was pushing forward their territorial asspirations against the Austrians and Italians.

Knowing all that Josip Broz Tito was smart enough not to push his luck, so he worked hard on shrinking serb nationalism, suppressing croat nationalism and pressing hard on the religions. The whole idea of breaking ties with the USSR was to give to the jugoslav nations a common enemy so an internal ethnic conflict wouldn't errupt, while drawing western finances needed to raise the standard of living with the same goal - to make an internal ethnic conflict highly unlikely. This is why Jugoslavia was so successfull at the Time of Tito, simply because it dropped all the agendas, that could set it alight. Tito's Jugoslavia is not a triumph of jugoslavism, but its full denial. The federalism that was established by him had the idea to convince the separatists, that this was the better way, not that it was Tito's fancy and he was wrong to pull it through, there was no other option. The problem is that they were not convinced. They wanted out, and the Serbs wanted a firmer grip on the whole country. The separatists wanted Jugoslavia to be dismantled, and the Serbs wanted to keep it alive. The federalism was not a bad thing, it wasn't even real. Its goal was to convince everyone in the statement that everything is as usual and the state is united as ever, when in fact wasn't. This changed, when Milosevic came to power. At that time most of the Serbs were pro-jugoslav. His idea was to alienate them from the Croats, Slovenians and muslim Bosniaks in order to consolidate the Serbs around himself, convincing them that they are in a state of siege and them keeping as much of Jugoslav territory as possible.

So Jugoslavia was never alive. Throughout all of its timeline it existed merely as a consequence of external factors. THAT are the facts. Not irrelevant statetments like: "Oh, but we lived so well back then." Croats and Slovenians live much better today, even Bosniaks don't live worse than before 1990 (of course, not concidering the war). Montenegrins don't live worse either, with the possibility to make it even better if they choose to curtail their mafia. The only nations that have lower standard of living are the Serbians and the Macedonians and that is because they lost the incomes of the yugoslav economy, that were produced mainly by Croats and Slovenians. And the straw that broke the camel's back were the stupid and cheap serbian tricks of "Oh, we are more important because, we forged Jugoslavia and we must lead the way", combined with "We are all equal and every nation has a vote in the Presidency, but as Vojevodina and Kosovo are part of Serbia we get 3 votes, so screw you."
 

abc123

Banned
The question is not if Jugoslavia could have survived longer, but actually how it actually survived that long anyway. It has been an artificial political body all along.

The sh*thole the Serbs are in for the last 150 years is mostly thanks to Garashanin. Garashanin was a minister of the interior in the middle of the 19th century, he could be considered the father of serbian ultra-nationalism. He wrote a small book entitled Načertanije (or Prescription, Waypoints if you like) for the policy of the Serbian state. Basically what it said is following, put short:
- Serbia is a small, insignificant and isolated country
- in order for us not to get assimilated by a foreign power we have to enlarge. But how do we do it?
- we are southern slavs, so we have to unite all the southern slavs around us, but this won't be that easy: first off the Bulgarians are the most numerous southern slavic people, so that turns them in a major obsticle for us and we have to assimilate them, building on our common religion; then come the Croats and Slovenians, they are catholics, so our job would be harder. BUT: although Serbs and Croats have been traditionally hostile they have an uneasy and increasingly problematic relationship with the Magyars (Hungarians); the Slovenians on their side ahev an uneasy relationship with the Austrians. So what we should do is that while not saying a word about our different religions we should promote our common southern slav ancestry. Then come the Bosniaks, who although converted to Islam are also Slavs, so with them we have the greatest chance for assimilation.

This book has been secretely circulating among the Serbian politicians for a long, long time and has been the major political doctrine ever since its printing until early 21st century. The first point as already mentioned was Bulgaria. The Serbs tried to convince all the western Bulgarians that they were actually Serbs. The constant failure in that direction didn't discourage them. Even before we became independent we achieved our own separate church (The Bulgarian Exarchate). So the Sultan oredered that a plebiscite should be held in all the European municipalities of the Ottoman Empire, which have a slavic eastern orthodox population. Then every municipality where a majority has voted in favour of the exarchate was added to it. This is the result (the red area):
Bulgarian-Exarchate-1870-1913.jpg

As a matter of fact the voting was mostly around 90-95% in favour. Please note that Nis has voted in favour.

Then the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-1878 started and while the Russian and the Romanian armies carried all the brunt of fighting the Serbs entered the war just as it was already won in order to have a claim of being a co-belligerent and have an excuse to take the Nis area. So when they contacted the Russians, the latter have already realised they dont have the strength to go into a diplomatic or, God forbid, a prolonged military conflict. So the logical solution for St. Petersburg was to appeace Belgrade, by granting it Nis. This proved to be irrelevant as the Serbs laid claims for the whole of Western Bulgaria all the way to present-day Pazardzhik. So in order to underline the bulgarian character of the lands claimed the Parliament in Tarnovo voted to move the capital to Sofia, this is the reason this city is the Bulgarian capital today. The Serbs realised that, for what they did they turned the newly-liberated bulgarian state in a mortal enemy so this is why they always tried to hurt its interests (the war of 1885, The Balkan Wars, the serbian actions in Macedonia, the Balkan Entente etc. etc. etc.) So in the east the serbian policy was to protect the things they have achieved.

Then comes Croatia. Ever since the Croats converted to Roman catholicism and the Serbs to Eastern orthodox christianity their relations have been hostile. While the Serbs tried to setlle down in the Ottoman Empire (the Sultan married a serbian princess, then at the Battle of Ankara her brother was a loyal turkish ally, saved Sultan Beyazid's sons, in the following turkish civil war, which was a feud between them for the throne, constantly changed sides and most probably saved the empire by opposing the Balkan rulers in their uprisings.) Then in the following decades many serbian families voluntarily sent their sons to the Janissary Corps with the idea that this way they were giving them a kick-start to top political and military positions of the empire. I am not implying that all the Serbs were that way, but those who kept on fighting simply left for the Austrian Military Border or to the romanian principalities or to Russia. So Serbia was actually built by those who settled down. Croats on the other side always kept on fighting the Turks, and this is an esteem they had, which gave them in their eyes a moral superiority over the Serbs. Not to mention that they had their own doctrine to unite all the southern slavs around themselves, which wasn't as nearly as reactionary as the serb one and had a much greater chance to succeed. Croats kept a fighting tradition and they were actually also mercenaries like the Swiss, although on a much smaller scale. Then when the Magyars rebelled against Vienna the Croats supported the Austrians. So after that the Croats had fairly good political positions in Austria-Hungary, although being part of the hungarian kingdom. So around 1914 if you have asked them which way should they go: Stay in A-H, secede to an independent Croat state or join Serbia you would probably get 75% / 25% / 0%.

Slovenia is very different than that. They never were an independent political entity until they gained independence in 1991. They also didn't have a class of slovenian scholars, or statesmen of their own. The composition of the population until the mid-19th century was a german higher class of major landowners , statesmen, lawyers, military men etc., a slovenian lower class of peasants and inbetween an extremely thin and insignificant class ot some italian artists, middle european artisans etc. Until then the Slovenians haven't realised themselves as being a nation themselves. And what is even worse for the ideas of Garasanin, they didn't even consider themselves as southern slavs. When the Slovenian Enlightment began they saw themselves as very close to Bohemians (Czechs), rather than close to Croats or to Serbians. The Slovenians even took the Idea and the name itself of the Bohemian youth sport and cultural movement - the "Sokol". So they started forming their indigenious slovenian elite, but by the time the A-H Empire collapsed they weren't ready just yet.

Bosnians had an independent country at the time before the Turkish conquest. This was a result of the independent Bosnian church, itself based on the bulgarian Bogomil sect, which was so utterly opposed to the Eastern Orthodox Christianity, that when the Turks came to our lands the bogomils converted to Roman Catholicism or to Islam, and didn't revert back to orthodoxal christianity. The same thing happened there. By that time a "croat" was rather a southern slav catholic, so those who chose catholicism actually joined the croat people. The majority of Bosniaks chose Islam with the simple idea to stay out of trouble. So the Turks kinda hoped that the same way they will assimilate them. But this didn't happen, they insisted on their distinct slav nature. So from that moment on until our present day the Bosniaks have always been outsiders - to the Turks, to the Austrians, to the Croats and to the Serbs. So to them it didn't matter much who their master would be when they were always second-class citizens.

This is the background. The official serbian position is: "When WWI ended both the Croats and the Slovenians voluntarily joined our state, so we were right. What right do they have to break away, when we didn't force them to join us?" In fact both catholic nations would rather form a state resembling Czechoslovakia. The problem for them was that the Czechs had nationalist leaders in exile, working against Vienna. Both the Czechs and the Slovaks deserted in masses to the Russians. Croats and Slovenians on the other side fought entussiastically against the Italians. If they formed their country it would be considered a defeated one, like Hungary for example. So they joined Serbia simply to be considered part of the Entente, and Bosnia and Herzegovina went along with them without the right to say a word. Both the other states, that could have laid claims on B-H were defeated countries.

Those people simply decided to give the Kingdom of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs a try. But from the start it turned out that the new state was considered actually a Greater Serbia and was intended to be governed that way. The more Croats, Slovenians and Bosniaks drifted away, the harsher dictatorship was imposed by Belgrade. Purely violent force was everything that kept them in line and when that force collapsed... well, we know about the Independent Croat State, the Bosnian Waffen-SS units etc. The jugoslav partisans weren't at all the force they pretended to be, they just existed with their role being purely symbolic. They got Jugoslavia on a silver plate the same way the Kingdom of Serbia got it after the previous world war. The southern part of the country was liberated by the Bulgarian army and the northern part - by the 3rd Ukraininan Front, of which the Bulgarian country was part. There are numerous memoires of bulgarian veterans that say: "we fought the Germans, pushed them away and then out the blue came the partisans stating - we are allies now, but you were fascists until yesterday, so you wait here as we enter the village." So this is the legend of Partisan fighting power. Bulgaria was part of the Socialist block and was ordered to shut its mouth and support the official jugoslav position of "brotherly fighting together". The Croats were in an even worse position, as they fought on the side of the Reich until the end. So did Hungary, and so it had to leave any claims on Vojevodina (where a magyar ethnic majority lived). The Slovenians were OK with Jugoslavia just for the moment, as it was pushing forward their territorial asspirations against the Austrians and Italians.

Knowing all that Josip Broz Tito was smart enough not to push his luck, so he worked hard on shrinking serb nationalism, suppressing croat nationalism and pressing hard on the religions. The whole idea of breaking ties with the USSR was to give to the jugoslav nations a common enemy so an internal ethnic conflict wouldn't errupt, while drawing western finances needed to raise the standard of living with the same goal - to make an internal ethnic conflict highly unlikely. This is why Jugoslavia was so successfull at the Time of Tito, simply because it dropped all the agendas, that could set it alight. Tito's Jugoslavia is not a triumph of jugoslavism, but its full denial. The federalism that was established by him had the idea to convince the separatists, that this was the better way, not that it was Tito's fancy and he was wrong to pull it through, there was no other option. The problem is that they were not convinced. They wanted out, and the Serbs wanted a firmer grip on the whole country. The separatists wanted Jugoslavia to be dismantled, and the Serbs wanted to keep it alive. The federalism was not a bad thing, it wasn't even real. Its goal was to convince everyone in the statement that everything is as usual and the state is united as ever, when in fact wasn't. This changed, when Milosevic came to power. At that time most of the Serbs were pro-jugoslav. His idea was to alienate them from the Croats, Slovenians and muslim Bosniaks in order to consolidate the Serbs around himself, convincing them that they are in a state of siege and them keeping as much of Jugoslav territory as possible.

So Jugoslavia was never alive. Throughout all of its timeline it existed merely as a consequence of external factors. THAT are the facts. Not irrelevant statetments like: "Oh, but we lived so well back then." Croats and Slovenians live much better today, even Bosniaks don't live worse than before 1990 (of course, not concidering the war). Montenegrins don't live worse either, with the possibility to make it even better if they choose to curtail their mafia. The only nations that have lower standard of living are the Serbians and the Macedonians and that is because they lost the incomes of the yugoslav economy, that were produced mainly by Croats and Slovenians. And the straw that broke the camel's back were the stupid and cheap serbian tricks of "Oh, we are more important because, we forged Jugoslavia and we must lead the way", combined with "We are all equal and every nation has a vote in the Presidency, but as Vojevodina and Kosovo are part of Serbia we get 3 votes, so screw you."

You have made a few mistakes in your post:

1. it isn't true that Croats and Serbs hated each other for centuries.
It's very hard to find a hatred between them before 1903., and even after that that was a minor thing until 1918 or 1928 to be more precise.

2. In 1914 the majority of Croats knew that independent Croatia wasn't possible because too many of neighbors had territorial ambitions on them ( Italy- Dalmatia, Serbia- B&H, parts of Slavonia and dalmatia, Hungar- the rest of Croatia ), so most of them favored joint country with Serbia/Slovenia/B&H/Montenegro, where they will be equal and will have AT LEAST as much authonomy as in Austro- Hungary.
There was a small number ( maybe 20% ) who favoured staying in Austro- Hungary ( but as a third part of A-H, trialism ). Majority also would gladly acept such solution ( but they were aware that it isn't quite realistic ).

3. Croats didn't had a GOOD position in Austro- Hungary. Maybe it appears so if we look on Slovenians or Slovaks, or even the Czechs, but Croats allways have thinking about self like a equal with Hungarians, so ANYTHING lower than equality with Hungarian position was a BAD position for Croats.

4. Bosniaks are 1993 invention of Alija Izetbegović. At the end of 19 century they were Turks that can't speak Turkish very good. In 1914. they mostly were Croats or Serbs by national feeling, but many of them still didn't had a real national feeling, but their religion separated them from Croats and/or Serbs. Croats considered them as a Croats of islamic faith and were keen on assimilating them, while the Serbs considered them Turks and were keen on killing/expelling them if they don't convert on christianity.

4. Theory about Bogumils in medeval Bosnia isn't quite substantiated with independent sources and also there's no consensus between historians about the nature/existence of heresy in mideval Bosnia.

5. Serbian oficial ideollogy was that they had liberated Croats and Slovenians from Austro-Hungarian Youke and that they have to have a main role in Kingdom of SHS. OTOH, Crats and Sloveniand didn't feel themselves liberated at all, because they entered into Kingdom of SHS on their own descision, after breakdown of A-H.

Otherwise, a pretty good post.;)
 
Rotating Presidency

I don't beleive this idea has popped up, but i think it is interesting. As is known, the balkans are a complicated place. The breakup of yugoslovia is a key example of that. But what if instead of trying to hide national ethnic groups, ethnicity was embraced. Yugoslovia could become a commonwealth/federation. There would be a parliament with members elected based on the proportion of each ethnic group in the country. For the role of the presidency and prime ministership there would be a powersharing agreement. The Presidency would be one 6 year term. The Prime Minister would also be limited to one 6 year term. Here's the kicker, the presidency would have to rotate between the various ethnic groups. So it would be "one term for a president of" serbian origin, one term for a president of macedonian origin, one term for a president of montegran origin, one term for a president of boznian origin, one term for a president of herezgovinian origin, one term for a president of croatian origin, and one term for a president of kosovinian origin. That would give each ethnic group a change to rule the country, so they would not feel left out. For the office of Prime Minister, he would have to be of a different ethnic origin then the president. For example the president is serbian, and the PM is macedonian. This would give the presidency to the dominant ethnic group:the serbs; this would give the macedonians, a minor group in Yugoslovia the Prime Ministership.

So this would be a much larger version of the powersharing agreement in Northern Ireland.

Just an idea, but what does everyone think?


Wishing you well, his majesty,
The Scandinavian Emperor
 

abc123

Banned
I don't beleive this idea has popped up, but i think it is interesting. As is known, the balkans are a complicated place. The breakup of yugoslovia is a key example of that. But what if instead of trying to hide national ethnic groups, ethnicity was embraced. Yugoslovia could become a commonwealth/federation. There would be a parliament with members elected based on the proportion of each ethnic group in the country. For the role of the presidency and prime ministership there would be a powersharing agreement. The Presidency would be one 6 year term. The Prime Minister would also be limited to one 6 year term. Here's the kicker, the presidency would have to rotate between the various ethnic groups. So it would be "one term for a president of" serbian origin, one term for a president of macedonian origin, one term for a president of montegran origin, one term for a president of boznian origin, one term for a president of herezgovinian origin, one term for a president of croatian origin, and one term for a president of kosovinian origin. That would give each ethnic group a change to rule the country, so they would not feel left out. For the office of Prime Minister, he would have to be of a different ethnic origin then the president. For example the president is serbian, and the PM is macedonian. This would give the presidency to the dominant ethnic group:the serbs; this would give the macedonians, a minor group in Yugoslovia the Prime Ministership.

So this would be a much larger version of the powersharing agreement in Northern Ireland.

Just an idea, but what does everyone think?


Wishing you well, his majesty,
The Scandinavian Emperor

Well, allmost all of that WAS implemented OTL after 1980.
It didn't help.
IMHO it didn't help because of communism.
Because, in communism you couldn't see any big difference between politicians, never mind republic/nation. They were well hidden behing monolithic party facade.
 
I don't beleive this idea has popped up, but i think it is interesting. As is known, the balkans are a complicated place. The breakup of yugoslovia is a key example of that. But what if instead of trying to hide national ethnic groups, ethnicity was embraced. Yugoslovia could become a commonwealth/federation. There would be a parliament with members elected based on the proportion of each ethnic group in the country. For the role of the presidency and prime ministership there would be a powersharing agreement. The Presidency would be one 6 year term. The Prime Minister would also be limited to one 6 year term. Here's the kicker, the presidency would have to rotate between the various ethnic groups. So it would be "one term for a president of" serbian origin, one term for a president of macedonian origin, one term for a president of montegran origin, one term for a president of boznian origin, one term for a president of herezgovinian origin, one term for a president of croatian origin, and one term for a president of kosovinian origin. That would give each ethnic group a change to rule the country, so they would not feel left out. For the office of Prime Minister, he would have to be of a different ethnic origin then the president. For example the president is serbian, and the PM is macedonian. This would give the presidency to the dominant ethnic group:the serbs; this would give the macedonians, a minor group in Yugoslovia the Prime Ministership.

So this would be a much larger version of the powersharing agreement in Northern Ireland.

Just an idea, but what does everyone think?


Wishing you well, his majesty,
The Scandinavian Emperor

All this has been tried in Yugoslavia and unfortunately failed. When in 1990 there were debates between the republic leaderships and the federal government over what kind of country Yugoslavia would be after the communist system was abandoned in large part three separate proposals were embraced. The Serbian position supported by Montenegro as well as Bosnia and Macedonia for a while, argued for the principle of a one man one vote system as was the case in Poland, Hungary, Romania etc. Basically they argued that presidential and parliamentary elections should be taken on the basis of Yugoslavia as a whole where the entire country votes for one president. This of course meant that Serbs constituting around 40% of the population of Yugoslavia would have the dominant say in politics while Croats 23% Slovenes 8% Macedonians 8% Albanians 9% etc. would lose a lot of their political power. This proposal was rejected by the republics of Slovenia and Croatia precisely because they would have lost the political power they enjoyed. The proposals of Slovenia and Croatia argued instead that Yugoslavia should become a confederation of sovereign states in which each republic would have one vote in a federal council consisting of the 6 republics and 2 autonomous provinces. Basically what they wanted was to preserve Tito's communist system and adopt it to capitalism. This of course was opposed by Serbia and Montenegro who argued it reduced their political power to an arbitrary level under what it should be. They argued that it was unfair for Serbia to have only one vote in the presidency equal with Croatia and Slovenia when Serbs constituted 40% of the population while Croats only constitued 23% and Slovenes only 8%. The republics of Macedonia and Bosnia generally tended to adopt a middle position between these two extremes. In my view they offered the best solution for Yugoslavia with the so-called Gligorov-Izetbegovic plan which argued that Montenegro (which was pro-union with Serbia at the time) should become an autonomous province within Serbia along with Kosovo and Vojvodina. Bosnia and Macedonia would then be a part of a Yugoslav federation while that Yugoslav federation would then form a confederation with Slovenia and Croatia which would be independent states. Basically there would then be three countries Slovenia, Croatia and Yugoslavia united through a confederation.
 
Not sure if this was posted already, but if Tito did a similiar feat as Franco, namely bringing back the monarchy with certain reservations, the internal regional nationalism would have been significantly abated with a figurehead. Spain gave up a lot of autonomy in several areas of the country but in the end it worked.

Unfortunately, the only royal oriented communist counties that come to mind are Laos and to a far less amount Cambodia. (N. Korea currently is a hereditary communist dictatorship, which is different.) In both cases the top people (a sister of Pol Pot was a royal concubine at the royal palace, and he often visited) were affiliated with that scene, and in neither case did it bode very well for the institution.

To the best of my knowledge, Tito only had some experience with the Austrian Army, meaning the wrong Royals as the Serbian or maybe Montenegrian branch would be required. Also, he was really reformed to the Soviet model, without any monarchy at all, during his capture and joining in the October Revolution.

Stranger things have been known to happen in politics, however. The only likely reason would be Tito's grudging desire to keep Yugoslavs together with whatever it takes and realization that there were poor odds for doing so with the communist successors on hand.
 

abc123

Banned
Not sure if this was posted already, but if Tito did a similiar feat as Franco, namely bringing back the monarchy with certain reservations, the internal regional nationalism would have been significantly abated with a figurehead. Spain gave up a lot of autonomy in several areas of the country but in the end it worked.

Unfortunately, the only royal oriented communist counties that come to mind are Laos and to a far less amount Cambodia. (N. Korea currently is a hereditary communist dictatorship, which is different.) In both cases the top people (a sister of Pol Pot was a royal concubine at the royal palace, and he often visited) were affiliated with that scene, and in neither case did it bode very well for the institution.

To the best of my knowledge, Tito only had some experience with the Austrian Army, meaning the wrong Royals as the Serbian or maybe Montenegrian branch would be required. Also, he was really reformed to the Soviet model, without any monarchy at all, during his capture and joining in the October Revolution.

Stranger things have been known to happen in politics, however. The only likely reason would be Tito's grudging desire to keep Yugoslavs together with whatever it takes and realization that there were poor odds for doing so with the communist successors on hand.

Problem with that solution is that yugoslavian royal house was in fact SERBIAN royal house. So, they were much hated by evreyone else than Serbs, and even a great number of Serbs didn't like them too.
So, no- that wouldn't work.
 
You have made a few mistakes in your post:

1. it isn't true that Croats and Serbs hated each other for centuries.
It's very hard to find a hatred between them before 1903., and even after that that was a minor thing until 1918 or 1928 to be more precise.

2. In 1914 the majority of Croats knew that independent Croatia wasn't possible because too many of neighbors had territorial ambitions on them ( Italy- Dalmatia, Serbia- B&H, parts of Slavonia and dalmatia, Hungar- the rest of Croatia ), so most of them favored joint country with Serbia/Slovenia/B&H/Montenegro, where they will be equal and will have AT LEAST as much authonomy as in Austro- Hungary.
There was a small number ( maybe 20% ) who favoured staying in Austro- Hungary ( but as a third part of A-H, trialism ). Majority also would gladly acept such solution ( but they were aware that it isn't quite realistic ).

3. Croats didn't had a GOOD position in Austro- Hungary. Maybe it appears so if we look on Slovenians or Slovaks, or even the Czechs, but Croats allways have thinking about self like a equal with Hungarians, so ANYTHING lower than equality with Hungarian position was a BAD position for Croats.

4. Bosniaks are 1993 invention of Alija Izetbegović. At the end of 19 century they were Turks that can't speak Turkish very good. In 1914. they mostly were Croats or Serbs by national feeling, but many of them still didn't had a real national feeling, but their religion separated them from Croats and/or Serbs. Croats considered them as a Croats of islamic faith and were keen on assimilating them, while the Serbs considered them Turks and were keen on killing/expelling them if they don't convert on christianity.

4. Theory about Bogumils in medeval Bosnia isn't quite substantiated with independent sources and also there's no consensus between historians about the nature/existence of heresy in mideval Bosnia.

5. Serbian oficial ideollogy was that they had liberated Croats and Slovenians from Austro-Hungarian Youke and that they have to have a main role in Kingdom of SHS. OTOH, Crats and Sloveniand didn't feel themselves liberated at all, because they entered into Kingdom of SHS on their own descision, after breakdown of A-H.

Otherwise, a pretty good post.;)

I don't know what is the motivation for your judgement what is right and what is wrong. I also don't know where do you come from and what materials have you read. It probably shows from my posts that I am Bulgarian. So my language, Croat and Serbian are very similar. This makes it easier for me to communicate directly with Croats and Serbs. I have also studied Political Science in Germany so I had the chance to talk to some of them on the subject. As good as some books might be I still prefer to seek the opinion of people directly involved in the processes I study. So the part on Croats I wrote is double-checked with colleagues of mine.

1. It is absolutely true on three grounds - territorial, political and religious. Territorial because the refugee Serbs that fled the Ottoman Empire were welcomed by Vienna, settled on croat lands that were detached as an Autonomous military zone out of the political reach of Croatia and Slavonia, and of th erespective elites, which wanted to turn them into serfs. And they were also allowed to confess freely their Orthodoxal christian religion at a time when religion mattered much much more than today. You see the croatian point of view that they are the front post of the Catholic civilization is much older than you think.

2. Territorial ambitions is something that is ever present in Europe through all of the history of the continent. So 1914, before or later doesn't make that much of a difference. And more important it is almost never a two-nation dispute. So you have four nations competing for Dalmatia (Croats, Slovenes, Austrians and Italians), not to mention that italian interests aren't at all homogenous. The way the lands in the north joined Italy they just as well could have:

a) stayed in a immensely reduced Austrian state after WWI (Southern Tyrol) where they would have had far greater representation than in Austria-Hungary
b) joined Ticino to boost the italian part of Switzerland to the extend of the German or the French parts, although I realize that would be problematic for Bern
c) resurrect a Venetian state. Why not? Smaller and much easier to control than Italy, which was of virtually no use for the Entente.

Then there are 3 factors in the Bosnian case - Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats. The reasons the Bosniaks weren't allowed to form a state of their own were 1) because they are Muslims and 2) because they didn't rebel against Vienna during the war. But if they did rise up than point 1 would really matter all that much. It is not the same case and it is not entirely correct to mention it but I see some resemblance to the Quebecois. They had a different religion and different political views, so when they were conquered by the British they turned to be more loyal to London than actually the colonial authorities.

So if the Bosniaks were granted independence they too would have been much easier to control by the Great Powers especially in the christian "sandwich" they are pressed in.

Hungary had problems, not power. It too was surrounded at all sides by hostile nations, so it was in no position to pose a threat. About how "they will be equal and will have AT LEAST as much authonomy as in Austro- Hungary." no one had the slightest illusion of a favourable autonomy in a Serbian-led state. The proponents of a Tree-state-monarchy were even less than your 20% and I would categorise them as "lower-middle class" wiseguys who fancy to "analyze" late in the evening at a bottle of wine or whatever with friends topics they insist of knowing very well when in reality they don't have a clue about.

The higher class of politicians had the personal impression that this model didn't have any chance to work, the scientists wrote their books, that came to the conclusion that it couldn't have possibly worked, the lower class of towns people and peasants felt by the burden of taxes and the attitude of the bureaucracy that they wouldn't be treated equal. Hell, the bureaucrats insisted on being "austro-hungarians", who ought an allegiance to the Emperor (i.e. supporting the austrian cause) and ought to work in German, which the greater part of the lower class didn't even understand.

3. No one except the Austrians and the "austrianised" nobilities of the subject nations had a good position in A-H. So the Croats had it IN COMPARISON to all the other nations except the Austrians (or Germans in A-H as they categorized themselves). Exactly in line of the Magyar-Croat antagonism you mention the Croats relied on austrian support because of the Austrian-Magyar antagonism. Something the other nations couldn't rely on.

4. Once again I don't know where do you come from and what materials have you read, but Bosniaks are NOT a 1993 invention and they certainly AREN'T Turks. They weren't considered such by the Turks and they didn't consider to be Turks themselves. And it is my fundamental belief, that if they considered themselves even aliens from Mars they have the right to be taken as such, not to be judged by other what they are. Don't prove me wrong, I have the UN backing on this. :) It is ridiculous to state that they considered themselves Croats or Serbs at any given time, other than the croat and serb minorities which were almost insignificant back then.
Does it ring a bell to you that the Sarajevo assassination was in fact a Serbian black operation and not planned, executed or at least supported by the Bosniaks?

The medieval Bosnian Church was either directly connected to the Bogomils (from Богомил, the founder of the sect, not Богумил) or similar. It all comes from Far Eastern Europe and the armenian perceptions that the world is not created by good forces only (meaning by God), but by both good and evil forces (so the Satan had also a significant role). This contradicts both Orthodoxal Christianity and Catholicism. Both sects are either part of the same movement, or closely related. There are many prominent bogomils that moved to Bosnia and entered the local clergy. Religious history is not my subject so I am not familiar with that matter, but I was assured by history students about this. Lutheranism and Calvinism are also not the same but both are considered part of Protestantism.

5. This was the ideology for the common serb masses, and no one really fell for it. Just because that was the official Belgrade justification for the serbian actions doesn't mean that it instantaneously got in everybody's heads. On the contrary. They tried hard to disguise the leading role of the Serbs in the newly formed mega-state. Please note the fact how the Serbs humbly called it the Kingdom of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs in the beginning (oh, isn't that sweet... and pointless, when right from the start all they did was to curtail the political representation of all the other nations and around 1929 the name was changed to Jugoslavia).

As for how Croats and Slovenes voluntarily joined in, yeah, right. Faced with the possibility to be considered a defeated country, yeah that really is a 50% - 50% choice. By the way they never lost the right to secede, so the actions of the federal jugoslav army could absolutely be judged as illegal.
 

abc123

Banned
I don't know what is the motivation for your judgement what is right and what is wrong. I also don't know where do you come from and what materials have you read. It probably shows from my posts that I am Bulgarian. So my language, Croat and Serbian are very similar. This makes it easier for me to communicate directly with Croats and Serbs. I have also studied Political Science in Germany so I had the chance to talk to some of them on the subject. As good as some books might be I still prefer to seek the opinion of people directly involved in the processes I study. So the part on Croats I wrote is double-checked with colleagues of mine.

1. It is absolutely true on three grounds - territorial, political and religious. Territorial because the refugee Serbs that fled the Ottoman Empire were welcomed by Vienna, settled on croat lands that were detached as an Autonomous military zone out of the political reach of Croatia and Slavonia, and of th erespective elites, which wanted to turn them into serfs. And they were also allowed to confess freely their Orthodoxal christian religion at a time when religion mattered much much more than today. You see the croatian point of view that they are the front post of the Catholic civilization is much older than you think.

2. Territorial ambitions is something that is ever present in Europe through all of the history of the continent. So 1914, before or later doesn't make that much of a difference. And more important it is almost never a two-nation dispute. So you have four nations competing for Dalmatia (Croats, Slovenes, Austrians and Italians), not to mention that italian interests aren't at all homogenous. The way the lands in the north joined Italy they just as well could have:

a) stayed in a immensely reduced Austrian state after WWI (Southern Tyrol) where they would have had far greater representation than in Austria-Hungary
b) joined Ticino to boost the italian part of Switzerland to the extend of the German or the French parts, although I realize that would be problematic for Bern
c) resurrect a Venetian state. Why not? Smaller and much easier to control than Italy, which was of virtually no use for the Entente.

Then there are 3 factors in the Bosnian case - Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats. The reasons the Bosniaks weren't allowed to form a state of their own were 1) because they are Muslims and 2) because they didn't rebel against Vienna during the war. But if they did rise up than point 1 would really matter all that much. It is not the same case and it is not entirely correct to mention it but I see some resemblance to the Quebecois. They had a different religion and different political views, so when they were conquered by the British they turned to be more loyal to London than actually the colonial authorities.

So if the Bosniaks were granted independence they too would have been much easier to control by the Great Powers especially in the christian "sandwich" they are pressed in.

Hungary had problems, not power. It too was surrounded at all sides by hostile nations, so it was in no position to pose a threat. About how "they will be equal and will have AT LEAST as much authonomy as in Austro- Hungary." no one had the slightest illusion of a favourable autonomy in a Serbian-led state. The proponents of a Tree-state-monarchy were even less than your 20% and I would categorise them as "lower-middle class" wiseguys who fancy to "analyze" late in the evening at a bottle of wine or whatever with friends topics they insist of knowing very well when in reality they don't have a clue about.

The higher class of politicians had the personal impression that this model didn't have any chance to work, the scientists wrote their books, that came to the conclusion that it couldn't have possibly worked, the lower class of towns people and peasants felt by the burden of taxes and the attitude of the bureaucracy that they wouldn't be treated equal. Hell, the bureaucrats insisted on being "austro-hungarians", who ought an allegiance to the Emperor (i.e. supporting the austrian cause) and ought to work in German, which the greater part of the lower class didn't even understand.

3. No one except the Austrians and the "austrianised" nobilities of the subject nations had a good position in A-H. So the Croats had it IN COMPARISON to all the other nations except the Austrians (or Germans in A-H as they categorized themselves). Exactly in line of the Magyar-Croat antagonism you mention the Croats relied on austrian support because of the Austrian-Magyar antagonism. Something the other nations couldn't rely on.

4. Once again I don't know where do you come from and what materials have you read, but Bosniaks are NOT a 1993 invention and they certainly AREN'T Turks. They weren't considered such by the Turks and they didn't consider to be Turks themselves. And it is my fundamental belief, that if they considered themselves even aliens from Mars they have the right to be taken as such, not to be judged by other what they are. Don't prove me wrong, I have the UN backing on this. :) It is ridiculous to state that they considered themselves Croats or Serbs at any given time, other than the croat and serb minorities which were almost insignificant back then.
Does it ring a bell to you that the Sarajevo assassination was in fact a Serbian black operation and not planned, executed or at least supported by the Bosniaks?

The medieval Bosnian Church was either directly connected to the Bogomils (from Богомил, the founder of the sect, not Богумил) or similar. It all comes from Far Eastern Europe and the armenian perceptions that the world is not created by good forces only (meaning by God), but by both good and evil forces (so the Satan had also a significant role). This contradicts both Orthodoxal Christianity and Catholicism. Both sects are either part of the same movement, or closely related. There are many prominent bogomils that moved to Bosnia and entered the local clergy. Religious history is not my subject so I am not familiar with that matter, but I was assured by history students about this. Lutheranism and Calvinism are also not the same but both are considered part of Protestantism.

5. This was the ideology for the common serb masses, and no one really fell for it. Just because that was the official Belgrade justification for the serbian actions doesn't mean that it instantaneously got in everybody's heads. On the contrary. They tried hard to disguise the leading role of the Serbs in the newly formed mega-state. Please note the fact how the Serbs humbly called it the Kingdom of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs in the beginning (oh, isn't that sweet... and pointless, when right from the start all they did was to curtail the political representation of all the other nations and around 1929 the name was changed to Jugoslavia).

As for how Croats and Slovenes voluntarily joined in, yeah, right. Faced with the possibility to be considered a defeated country, yeah that really is a 50% - 50% choice. By the way they never lost the right to secede, so the actions of the federal jugoslav army could absolutely be judged as illegal.

Look, your'e so wrong on so many points, but I don't have a time or will right now to argue with you.
Also, I don't want to make a public arguing with you. We can continue this discussion by the Pprivate messages.
 
Problem with that solution is that yugoslavian royal house was in fact SERBIAN royal house. So, they were much hated by evreyone else than Serbs, and even a great number of Serbs didn't like them too.
So, no- that wouldn't work.

Of course the royal family was Serbian/non Croat or Slovenian.

I much agree it probably would not work, but for different reasons. Tito's stomache doing backflips, all goes against the grain of what happened with the royalist Chetnicks in WWII effectively siding with the Nazis/Wehrmacht against Tito's Partisans circa 1943.

As far as the Serbian/foreign (including royal background, that would have muted considerably in the following 40 years past, even in grudge filled Yugoslavia I think. If we had a POD with, say, a counter factual marriage of Crown Prince Alexander, born 1945, (father had remnants of a good reputation as a short lived figurehead) to a Croatian of humble background, a lot of emotional baggage would crumble away. Unlike earlier years, the monarchy at the 1980's should be far more humble and distant from nationalists, cyrillic writing standards, and other issues. After 40 years of atheistic Communism, the religious Orthodox issue would be greatly muted, too.

It is possible, just not likely that it would have been iniated past the hoops in Tito's mind. Once beyond that, what Tito mandated was accepted, especially if he went the distance and had the health to do it.
 

abc123

Banned
Of course the royal family was Serbian/non Croat or Slovenian.

I much agree it probably would not work, but for different reasons. Tito's stomache doing backflips, all goes against the grain of what happened with the royalist Chetnicks in WWII effectively siding with the Nazis/Wehrmacht against Tito's Partisans circa 1943.

As far as the Serbian/foreign (including royal background, that would have muted considerably in the following 40 years past, even in grudge filled Yugoslavia I think. If we had a POD with, say, a counter factual marriage of Crown Prince Alexander, born 1945, (father had remnants of a good reputation as a short lived figurehead) to a Croatian of humble background, a lot of emotional baggage would crumble away. Unlike earlier years, the monarchy at the 1980's should be far more humble and distant from nationalists, cyrillic writing standards, and other issues. After 40 years of atheistic Communism, the religious Orthodox issue would be greatly muted, too.

It is possible, just not likely that it would have been iniated past the hoops in Tito's mind. Once beyond that, what Tito mandated was accepted, especially if he went the distance and had the health to do it.

OK, to put it simply:

Karagjordjevich dynasty was THE simbol of Greater Serbia and Serbian opression of all-non-Serb nationalities in Yugoslavia. They enabled that, they supported that and they were Kings of Greater Serbia and not the kings of SHS or Yugoslavia.
One of main reasons of existance of second Yugoslavia was that they ( communists and Tito ) will make right all bad things from Kingdom of Y. And, actually, they did. At least on paper. They, OFC, made much their own mistakes, but, at least on paper, they improved things with federalism.

Simply, coup in 1941 was the end of monarchy in Serbia and in Yugoslavia.
 
Some issues

The question is not if Jugoslavia could have survived longer, but actually how it actually survived that long anyway. It has been an artificial political body all along.

The sh*thole the Serbs are in for the last 150 years is mostly thanks to Garashanin. Garashanin was a minister of the interior in the middle of the 19th century, he could be considered the father of serbian ultra-nationalism. He wrote a small book entitled Načertanije (or Prescription, Waypoints if you like) for the policy of the Serbian state. Basically what it said is following, put short:
- Serbia is a small, insignificant and isolated country
- in order for us not to get assimilated by a foreign power we have to enlarge. But how do we do it?
- we are southern slavs, so we have to unite all the southern slavs around us, but this won't be that easy: first off the Bulgarians are the most numerous southern slavic people, so that turns them in a major obsticle for us and we have to assimilate them, building on our common religion; then come the Croats and Slovenians, they are catholics, so our job would be harder. BUT: although Serbs and Croats have been traditionally hostile they have an uneasy and increasingly problematic relationship with the Magyars (Hungarians); the Slovenians on their side ahev an uneasy relationship with the Austrians. So what we should do is that while not saying a word about our different religions we should promote our common southern slav ancestry. Then come the Bosniaks, who although converted to Islam are also Slavs, so with them we have the greatest chance for assimilation.

This book has been secretely circulating among the Serbian politicians for a long, long time and has been the major political doctrine ever since its printing until early 21st century. The first point as already mentioned was Bulgaria. The Serbs tried to convince all the western Bulgarians that they were actually Serbs. The constant failure in that direction didn't discourage them. Even before we became independent we achieved our own separate church (The Bulgarian Exarchate). So the Sultan oredered that a plebiscite should be held in all the European municipalities of the Ottoman Empire, which have a slavic eastern orthodox population. Then every municipality where a majority has voted in favour of the exarchate was added to it. This is the result (the red area):
Bulgarian-Exarchate-1870-1913.jpg

As a matter of fact the voting was mostly around 90-95% in favour. Please note that Nis has voted in favour.

Then the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-1878 started and while the Russian and the Romanian armies carried all the brunt of fighting the Serbs entered the war just as it was already won in order to have a claim of being a co-belligerent and have an excuse to take the Nis area. So when they contacted the Russians, the latter have already realised they dont have the strength to go into a diplomatic or, God forbid, a prolonged military conflict. So the logical solution for St. Petersburg was to appeace Belgrade, by granting it Nis. This proved to be irrelevant as the Serbs laid claims for the whole of Western Bulgaria all the way to present-day Pazardzhik. So in order to underline the bulgarian character of the lands claimed the Parliament in Tarnovo voted to move the capital to Sofia, this is the reason this city is the Bulgarian capital today. The Serbs realised that, for what they did they turned the newly-liberated bulgarian state in a mortal enemy so this is why they always tried to hurt its interests (the war of 1885, The Balkan Wars, the serbian actions in Macedonia, the Balkan Entente etc. etc. etc.) So in the east the serbian policy was to protect the things they have achieved.

Then comes Croatia. Ever since the Croats converted to Roman catholicism and the Serbs to Eastern orthodox christianity their relations have been hostile. While the Serbs tried to setlle down in the Ottoman Empire (the Sultan married a serbian princess, then at the Battle of Ankara her brother was a loyal turkish ally, saved Sultan Beyazid's sons, in the following turkish civil war, which was a feud between them for the throne, constantly changed sides and most probably saved the empire by opposing the Balkan rulers in their uprisings.) Then in the following decades many serbian families voluntarily sent their sons to the Janissary Corps with the idea that this way they were giving them a kick-start to top political and military positions of the empire. I am not implying that all the Serbs were that way, but those who kept on fighting simply left for the Austrian Military Border or to the romanian principalities or to Russia. So Serbia was actually built by those who settled down. Croats on the other side always kept on fighting the Turks, and this is an esteem they had, which gave them in their eyes a moral superiority over the Serbs. Not to mention that they had their own doctrine to unite all the southern slavs around themselves, which wasn't as nearly as reactionary as the serb one and had a much greater chance to succeed. Croats kept a fighting tradition and they were actually also mercenaries like the Swiss, although on a much smaller scale. Then when the Magyars rebelled against Vienna the Croats supported the Austrians. So after that the Croats had fairly good political positions in Austria-Hungary, although being part of the hungarian kingdom. So around 1914 if you have asked them which way should they go: Stay in A-H, secede to an independent Croat state or join Serbia you would probably get 75% / 25% / 0%.

Slovenia is very different than that. They never were an independent political entity until they gained independence in 1991. They also didn't have a class of slovenian scholars, or statesmen of their own. The composition of the population until the mid-19th century was a german higher class of major landowners , statesmen, lawyers, military men etc., a slovenian lower class of peasants and inbetween an extremely thin and insignificant class ot some italian artists, middle european artisans etc. Until then the Slovenians haven't realised themselves as being a nation themselves. And what is even worse for the ideas of Garasanin, they didn't even consider themselves as southern slavs. When the Slovenian Enlightment began they saw themselves as very close to Bohemians (Czechs), rather than close to Croats or to Serbians. The Slovenians even took the Idea and the name itself of the Bohemian youth sport and cultural movement - the "Sokol". So they started forming their indigenious slovenian elite, but by the time the A-H Empire collapsed they weren't ready just yet.

Bosnians had an independent country at the time before the Turkish conquest. This was a result of the independent Bosnian church, itself based on the bulgarian Bogomil sect, which was so utterly opposed to the Eastern Orthodox Christianity, that when the Turks came to our lands the bogomils converted to Roman Catholicism or to Islam, and didn't revert back to orthodoxal christianity. The same thing happened there. By that time a "croat" was rather a southern slav catholic, so those who chose catholicism actually joined the croat people. The majority of Bosniaks chose Islam with the simple idea to stay out of trouble. So the Turks kinda hoped that the same way they will assimilate them. But this didn't happen, they insisted on their distinct slav nature. So from that moment on until our present day the Bosniaks have always been outsiders - to the Turks, to the Austrians, to the Croats and to the Serbs. So to them it didn't matter much who their master would be when they were always second-class citizens.

This is the background. The official serbian position is: "When WWI ended both the Croats and the Slovenians voluntarily joined our state, so we were right. What right do they have to break away, when we didn't force them to join us?" In fact both catholic nations would rather form a state resembling Czechoslovakia. The problem for them was that the Czechs had nationalist leaders in exile, working against Vienna. Both the Czechs and the Slovaks deserted in masses to the Russians. Croats and Slovenians on the other side fought entussiastically against the Italians. If they formed their country it would be considered a defeated one, like Hungary for example. So they joined Serbia simply to be considered part of the Entente, and Bosnia and Herzegovina went along with them without the right to say a word. Both the other states, that could have laid claims on B-H were defeated countries.

Those people simply decided to give the Kingdom of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs a try. But from the start it turned out that the new state was considered actually a Greater Serbia and was intended to be governed that way. The more Croats, Slovenians and Bosniaks drifted away, the harsher dictatorship was imposed by Belgrade. Purely violent force was everything that kept them in line and when that force collapsed... well, we know about the Independent Croat State, the Bosnian Waffen-SS units etc. The jugoslav partisans weren't at all the force they pretended to be, they just existed with their role being purely symbolic. They got Jugoslavia on a silver plate the same way the Kingdom of Serbia got it after the previous world war. The southern part of the country was liberated by the Bulgarian army and the northern part - by the 3rd Ukraininan Front, of which the Bulgarian country was part. There are numerous memoires of bulgarian veterans that say: "we fought the Germans, pushed them away and then out the blue came the partisans stating - we are allies now, but you were fascists until yesterday, so you wait here as we enter the village." So this is the legend of Partisan fighting power. Bulgaria was part of the Socialist block and was ordered to shut its mouth and support the official jugoslav position of "brotherly fighting together". The Croats were in an even worse position, as they fought on the side of the Reich until the end. So did Hungary, and so it had to leave any claims on Vojevodina (where a magyar ethnic majority lived). The Slovenians were OK with Jugoslavia just for the moment, as it was pushing forward their territorial asspirations against the Austrians and Italians.

Knowing all that Josip Broz Tito was smart enough not to push his luck, so he worked hard on shrinking serb nationalism, suppressing croat nationalism and pressing hard on the religions. The whole idea of breaking ties with the USSR was to give to the jugoslav nations a common enemy so an internal ethnic conflict wouldn't errupt, while drawing western finances needed to raise the standard of living with the same goal - to make an internal ethnic conflict highly unlikely. This is why Jugoslavia was so successfull at the Time of Tito, simply because it dropped all the agendas, that could set it alight. Tito's Jugoslavia is not a triumph of jugoslavism, but its full denial. The federalism that was established by him had the idea to convince the separatists, that this was the better way, not that it was Tito's fancy and he was wrong to pull it through, there was no other option. The problem is that they were not convinced. They wanted out, and the Serbs wanted a firmer grip on the whole country. The separatists wanted Jugoslavia to be dismantled, and the Serbs wanted to keep it alive. The federalism was not a bad thing, it wasn't even real. Its goal was to convince everyone in the statement that everything is as usual and the state is united as ever, when in fact wasn't. This changed, when Milosevic came to power. At that time most of the Serbs were pro-jugoslav. His idea was to alienate them from the Croats, Slovenians and muslim Bosniaks in order to consolidate the Serbs around himself, convincing them that they are in a state of siege and them keeping as much of Jugoslav territory as possible.

So Jugoslavia was never alive. Throughout all of its timeline it existed merely as a consequence of external factors. THAT are the facts. Not irrelevant statetments like: "Oh, but we lived so well back then." Croats and Slovenians live much better today, even Bosniaks don't live worse than before 1990 (of course, not concidering the war). Montenegrins don't live worse either, with the possibility to make it even better if they choose to curtail their mafia. The only nations that have lower standard of living are the Serbians and the Macedonians and that is because they lost the incomes of the yugoslav economy, that were produced mainly by Croats and Slovenians. And the straw that broke the camel's back were the stupid and cheap serbian tricks of "Oh, we are more important because, we forged Jugoslavia and we must lead the way", combined with "We are all equal and every nation has a vote in the Presidency, but as Vojevodina and Kosovo are part of Serbia we get 3 votes, so screw you."


"The Croats were in an even worse position, as they fought on the side of the Reich until the end."

I think you mean the Ustase (Croatian Nazis) as there were even more Croats in the Partisan forces. The Croatian State as we know today was formed in 1943 overlapping NDH (Puppet State). It was established before the "end". Today's Serbia overlapped The Serbian puppet state and so on. To claim the entire nation fought for the Nazi State is grossly misleading. And you give the Partisans very little credit.

I agree that Jugoslavia was never alive. It never really grew into its own. It was artificial.
 
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