WI WWII between Allies, Japanese and Soviets

Ok, i was thinking of Red Alert, and i was wondering:

WI, suppose hitler dies in 1923, the Second World War is between Western Europe and the Soviet Union and the Japanese Empire/Italy on June 22 1946?

What would it look like?
 

nbcman

Donor
Are you proposing the following sides:

Side 1
Western Europe
versus
Side 2
SU & Italy/Japan

or

Side 1
Western Europe & SU
versus
Side 2
Italy/Japan

or

Side 1
Western Europe
versus
Side 2
SU
versus
Side 3
Italy/Japan
(three way war)

It's not clear from your post.
 
Are you proposing the following sides:

Side 1
Western Europe
versus
Side 2
SU & Italy/Japan

or

Side 1
Western Europe & SU
versus
Side 2
Italy/Japan

or

Side 1
Western Europe
versus
Side 2
SU
versus
Side 3
Italy/Japan
(three way war)

It's not clear from your post.

three way war.
 
three way war.

Improbable?

We've never actually had proof that the Soviets nursed insidious schemes for the domination of Europe. I think Stalin took opportunities when they came. When his need to come to an understanding with Hitler threw the Curzon line and the Baltics into the deal, why not grab 'em. When his armies conquered half Europe, why give it up? And if the western powers squabble amongst themselves withut Hitler, which si by no means impossible, he might take some opportunities, but launching a war against all Europe? I don't think Stalin was mad enough.

Japan was pretty insane and could big its Chinese hole deeper over an embargo, but where does Italy come in?
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Eh, I could see Stalin trying to take down Poland somewhere down the line; he never really got over their victory in the '20s, especially because he used to be blamed for it. But it would probably be in the mid- to late-40s. A Soviet invasion of Poland does have the potential to start a European war with the Soviets vs. Poland, Britain, France, and maybe a few other states. Maybe the Japanese would get involved against the Soviets?

As long as the Japanese don't attack Pearl Harbor or accidentally kill some US citizens or something, the US'll probably stay out of war.

But again, Europe (including Italy) vs. the USSR, I could see that. Though most Eastern, Southern, and Central European countries really wouldn't know what to do. You may actually see another Phoney War break out, with more Soviet aggression once they complete the (bloody) conquest of Poland and, eventually, the Baltics.
 
Eh, I could see Stalin trying to take down Poland somewhere down the line; he never really got over their victory in the '20s, especially because he used to be blamed for it. But it would probably be in the mid- to late-40s. A Soviet invasion of Poland does have the potential to start a European war with the Soviets vs. Poland, Britain, France, and maybe a few other states. Maybe the Japanese would get involved against the Soviets?

As long as the Japanese don't attack Pearl Harbor or accidentally kill some US citizens or something, the US'll probably stay out of war.

But again, Europe (including Italy) vs. the USSR, I could see that. Though most Eastern, Southern, and Central European countries really wouldn't know what to do. You may actually see another Phoney War break out, with more Soviet aggression once they complete the (bloody) conquest of Poland and, eventually, the Baltics.

Certainly the Soviets wanted the Curzon line and so on, but I think we have no evidence that they weren't sensible enough to know they weren't worth war with all Europe. However, if they could get the connivance of Germany, or if Germany and Poland or France were at odds, they'd very likely take the chance, and either annex the Baltics or completely undermine them, too.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Actually, I just did some research. If Hitler's butterflied away before Munich, it's really just Poland and France versus the USSR. Those might be acceptable risks to Stalin, especially if he believes he can knock Poland out early. And if Japan still goes to war with Britain in 1941 (unlikely, but I suppose some sort of Pacific war between the two was bubbling up), then that's a potential major Soviet foe with more important things to worry than yet another Russo-Polish War. Hell, just have Halifax get the premiership and Britain may very well sit back and just watch the show, with or without a Japanese war.
 
Actually, I just did some research. If Hitler's butterflied away before Munich, it's really just Poland and France versus the USSR. Those might be acceptable risks to Stalin, especially if he believes he can knock Poland out early. And if Japan still goes to war with Britain in 1941 (unlikely, but I suppose some sort of Pacific war between the two was bubbling up), then that's a potential major Soviet foe with more important things to worry than yet another Russo-Polish War. Hell, just have Halifax get the premiership and Britain may very well sit back and just watch the show, with or without a Japanese war.

A limited Anglo(Franco)-Japanese Pacific War is certainly possible. In fact what I'd worry about for an alt-WW2 would be Japan and the Soviets arriving at a rapproachment, which basically happened in OTL anyway.

I think we basically agree here. France and Germany together can give the Russians pause. If they can rely on Germany blocking France, even grabbing a slice of Poland, Russia can jump on it. The danger for Russia is France selling Danzig or other areas of dispute to a sane Germany, allowing the two to form a united front. None of the regimes we could see without Hitler are exactly pro-communist. If we have Schleicher or someone, it could be rather anti-. Of course ideology is second to practical policy, but if Germany has what it wants from Poland it has no reason to desire a strong communist neighbout over a weak buffer state.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
What if Germany and the Soviets arrived at an agreement as they did IOTL? A lot of Junkers wanted parts of Prussia and Silesia back, badly. Basically another Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact without the Ribbentrop. After Poland's gone, they could build up a defence network with Romania, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc. Remember, a lot of those states hated both Poland and the Soviets. And without the Nazis, a lot of those states would be inclined to side with Germany now that Poland's gone...as they did even with the Nazis!:p

Then Europe's calm for a while. The Baltics are basically doomed, so after they get gobbled up, things return to a sort of pre-World War I scenario, which is basically a continental-sized powder-keg.
 
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