WI:WWI continues into 1919?

Ak-84

Banned
Okay, lets say the Germans political collapse dose not occur a firmer army stand against mutiny at home. Presume the other fronts collapse as in OTL.

So in 1919, with the Germans being on the pre-war borders for the most part.

So here is the strategic situation

i) The US takes over the brunt of the effort from the British Empire, while the French retain an essentially defensive posture. We now have 30 plus US divisions who have seen action in the last year, so their is a big experienced core to the army. Another 25 will be ready by the time the campaign season starts.

ii) The German High Seas fleet and the U Boats operate as in the previous years. Perhaps the HSF sorties, and faces the Grand Fleet, and the single Yank sqaudron.

How would the campaign go. I have a bad feeling that Metz 1944, could occur; with 500,000 casualties rather than the 50,000 in OTL.

What would be the tanks role, 1000 were slated to take part. As was an allied strategic bombing force, granted with not the best bombers ever invented, but their nonetheless.

How would a Germany that had clearly been defeated, and an America that had sufferd her million casualties act? Would US influence in the postwar senario be greater?
 

MrP

Banned
Germany is very much on the ropes if she's lasted this long. One might even go so far as to call her a paper tiger, if she's suffered through the Hundred Days as IOTL, since she's so depleted in resources,public support and manpower. However, Paddy Griffiths agrees with you about Metz. p.128, The Great War on the Western Front A Short History.

However, what Pershing overlooked was that ever since 1871 Metz had been fortified to at least the same standard that the French had applied to Verdun during the same period. To attack Metz in 1919 would have been equivalent to selecting the very strongest point in the enemy line on which to beat one's head.

So if the Entente can be compelled to attack here, they could have another delightful mess of a battle on their hands to re-inspire the German public.
 

Ak-84

Banned
Metz was the target of the Yanks and the French. The British were attacking further north. A bit as in the WWII Rhineland Campaign.


Northern Sector; the empire
Central Sector: The Americans
South: The French

I agree that the Germans would still have lost. But they had the ability to extract a high price from the Allies for their victory. The war I think would have lasted another year, with the allies crossing the Rhine opposed, then moving in. I suspect German resistance would collapse in the South, as it did in the WWII, in the center and the North, is where the battles would be fought.

Of course this is based on what happend a generation later.
 
i) The US takes over the brunt of the effort from the British Empire, while the French retain an essentially defensive posture. We now have 30 plus US divisions who have seen action in the last year, so their is a big experienced core to the army. Another 25 will be ready by the time the campaign season starts.
The problem here for the Americans would be doctrine, as the British have finally managed to hammer out a workable combined arms strategy and have tested it at Amiens. The US Army has still to lose the wave-after-wave of men mentality thats been battered out of everyone else during four years of fighting. Progress by the two allies under these circumstances might very well be almost equal.

I'd imagine that the US Army would continue to press eastwards into Western Germany whilst the British Army would remain on the offensive in Belgium. An interesting factor though would be if the British were able to deploy heat-distillated Diphenyl Chlorarsine cannisters. It was none-leathal though regarded as the chemical weapon that might have truely affected the balance of the war, as the filters in the German gas masks weren't thick enough to prevent the gas penetrating it.

In short, I suspect the the British would continue to make short, piercing thrusts through the German frontlines whilst the Americans would continue to attempt the larger and costly offensives. The gains on each side would probably be the same but you'd be able to knock up the US casualty rates this way.


ii) The German High Seas fleet and the U Boats operate as in the previous years. Perhaps the HSF sorties, and faces the Grand Fleet, and the single Yank sqaudron.
This would be interesting given the reforms implemented by Admiral Beatty regarding ammunition storage and the like, but the outcome such a battle is something I wouldn't like to comment on. It would certainly be bloody though...

How would the campaign go. I have a bad feeling that Metz 1944, could occur; with 500,000 casualties rather than the 50,000 in OTL.
I'd imagine that the Germans would put up a fierce resistance once they've been driven back onto German soil. Possibly an American offensive to take Metz, followed up by an assault upon Neunkirchen and Sarrbrucken. Further south maybe another thrust towards Pforzhelm and Stuttgart? These attacks would have a heavy price tag attached to them in my opinion, and barring extremely good luck in favour of the doughboys i'd imagine something in the region of at least 300,000 casualties to achieve these goals.

What would be the tanks role, 1000 were slated to take part. As was an allied strategic bombing force, granted with not the best bombers ever invented, but their nonetheless.
I'm not sure (someone else might be able to help) that Pershing and the US Army would use the combined-arms tactics that the British Army would abide by, but they might still be able to pull off a broad-front advance as the Germans are coming close to being exhausted. That would affect the armoured doctrine, though as the Germans don't have significantly large infantry reserves a Cambrai-style breakthrough isn't completely out of the question.

Then again I guess there'll be quite a few people who'll disagree with me.
 
Sweden would be in a lot of trouble supporting it's population, inflation reaching 45 % and the workers where radicalizing so I see a a big chance for some violence but I dubt they would win with a large farmer population who know they will be plundered. (By the way, the Swedish Wikipedia article seams written by Murry Rothbrad starting with lifting of the gold standard and preparations for war followed by a planned economy ending with economic disaster.)
 
Guys

If the HSF sorties in 1919 its almost certain to get very badly hammered. Britain has corrected the flaws shown earlier in the war and I think she has the greenboy shells by then. Definitely has better ammunition handling and I think even Beatty had learnt the value of practice and training by then. Also the RN is simply that much more powerful. There are 10 8x15" BBs in service there along with about a dozen 10x13.5" ships and a number of older ones. In comparison the Germans have Bayern and Baden and the rest are armed with 11" and 12". Also there is a powerful US squadron that by this time will have been trained up to combat status.

This all ignores the other big flaw in the HSF, of its abysmal moral and [FONT=&quot]maintenance [/FONT]by this time. If you managed to get them to sea without widespread revolts they would face a similar problem to the French from about 1800 onwards. Not as bad as they had seen some action in the Baltic and the occasional sortie in the North Sea but they were less practiced and it would be virtually impossible to avoid impact on moral. Dying in a glory ride for the honour of the navy might have inspired some of the aristocratic officers but not the middle class ones or the crews.

Steve
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Okay, lets say the Germans political collapse dose not occur a firmer army stand against mutiny at home. Presume the other fronts collapse as in OTL.

So in 1919, with the Germans being on the pre-war borders for the most part.

So here is the strategic situation

i) The US takes over the brunt of the effort from the British Empire, while the French retain an essentially defensive posture. We now have 30 plus US divisions who have seen action in the last year, so their is a big experienced core to the army. Another 25 will be ready by the time the campaign season starts.

ii) The German High Seas fleet and the U Boats operate as in the previous years. Perhaps the HSF sorties, and faces the Grand Fleet, and the single Yank sqaudron.

How would the campaign go. I have a bad feeling that Metz 1944, could occur; with 500,000 casualties rather than the 50,000 in OTL.

What would be the tanks role, 1000 were slated to take part. As was an allied strategic bombing force, granted with not the best bombers ever invented, but their nonetheless.

How would a Germany that had clearly been defeated, and an America that had sufferd her million casualties act? Would US influence in the postwar senario be greater?

Ground war will be interesting, since the Germans had no trench system in place along the German frontier and the AEF, BEF and French had broken the German defenses in numerous places in early October.

If the High Seas Fleet comes out and gives battle; it's dead. It spit the hook at Jutland; the Grand Fleet, especially with the American squadron is far stronger than in 1916. The Grand fleet had TEN battleships with 15" guns, along with two BC with 15" guns (92 15" guns total) while the American squadron added 40 14" guns on the four 14" ships deployed (with an additional 5 ships with a total of 60 14" guns in U.S. waters but available if needed). The German had added two 15" gun ships since Justland. The fourteen British and American ships with 14" or larger guns had a greater broadside weight that the entire High Seas Fleet. More importantly, ALL the RN/USN ships were protected against 12" shells, while only the two 15" German vessels were protected, at any range, against 14" or larger shells. The term for this is "meat on the table".

There was a damned good reason the HSF didn't venture out after 1916 in any strength.
 

Ak-84

Banned
The German Battlecruisers at Jutland were able to withstand '15 shells, and as naval architects would agree after the war, anything above 12 was pretty difficult to protect at normal battle ranges.

I think in a strange way the operations would boggle down soon, unlike 1945 there is no pressure from the east nor autobahns to quickly transport men.
 

MrP

Banned
The German Battlecruisers at Jutland were able to withstand '15 shells, and as naval architects would agree after the war, anything above 12 was pretty difficult to protect at normal battle ranges.

I think in a strange way the operations would boggle down soon, unlike 1945 there is no pressure from the east nor autobahns to quickly transport men.

The thread came back!

I shan't say anything else because I'm drunk.
 
The Germans have no rubber.

This will make gas defence somewhat problematic.

I really cannot see things bogging down, the Germans are just too short of everything, sometime around spring there will be a tipping point followed by very rapid collapse.
 
To ASB away the social unrest in Germany and then assume that Germany can keep fighting is a little bit bizzare, since a lot of the social unrest was provoked by the shortages in the German economy. I don't think you can realistically pull apart the various strands of defeat like this.
 
I suspect apocalypse. The Americans have joined, so the last major state on earth left is now also going to be plowing its economy and hope for the future under for Victory(tm). The Ottomans are (probably) already down for the count, the Bulgarians and Austro-Hungarians definitely are. God only knows whether the Germans will be around long enough for the Allies moving up from Sailonika to be more than a strategic threat, but certainly it can't help. Russia... who knows. :rolleyes:

In terms of actual battles: the American Army will be chewed up and spat out, so another country gets to join the forgotten generation. Fun. The Germans (for some reason) are apparently not losing morale, so the Allies in general are going to have some trouble - at least part of the Hundred days was that the German army was falling apart in every sense of the word. Of course, the German economy is screwed over massively and horribly, but they can probably hang on for another year before the Army literally runs out of bullets (or, more probably, shells first). Suffering for German civilians is going to be horrible. On the (very minor) plus side, there's going to be no Dolchstoss here; the Allies are going to march through Berlin in this one.

vL-W, of course, will be totally fine for another year. :cool:
 
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