WI: Wu Sangui's line is routed at Shanhai Pass?

Dorozhand

Banned
According to some sources, Wu Sangui's army, when it was engaged with Li Zicheng's in the beginning stage of the Battle of Shanhai Pass, was being worn down and was on the verge of defeat before a sandstorm blew in and the Qing army attacked during the confusion. What if by some circumstance, perhaps an earlier engagement of the two armies, Wu Sangui's line broke before the sandstorm and the Qing cavalry could come to turn the tide?
 
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Dorozhand

Banned
Jeez, you post about the ACW or some obscure European battle and you can get a dozen replies in a day. You post something about pre-1900 China and you usually get awkward silence :rolleyes:
 
Would there be any immediate effects? If the sandstorm comes on cue and the Manchus defeat the Shun forces as they did historically, then the Manchus are in the same position to conquer China, only without Wu Sangui's assistance, because the Qing are already better organized and better led. I'm inclined to say that there are no huge changes immediately, but the secondary effects, such as no Three Feudatories war, may be significant.
 

Dorozhand

Banned
Would there be any immediate effects? If the sandstorm comes on cue and the Manchus defeat the Shun forces as they did historically, then the Manchus are in the same position to conquer China, only without Wu Sangui's assistance, because the Qing are already better organized and better led. I'm inclined to say that there are no huge changes immediately, but the secondary effects, such as no Three Feudatories war, may be significant.

What if the Shun forces fight the Ming early enough and survive intact enough to defeat the Manchus when they arrive by defending the walls against their cavalry?
 
Well if memory serves Li's ministers were ineffective and spent their time on infighting against each other which doesn't seem like a recipe for a stable government even if Li is able to hold off the Manchus. There's also the Southern Ming for him to deal with eventually.

Also isn't Li supposed to have eaten the some of the defeated Ming soldiers after he took Beijing? That's crazy even by Chinese emperor standards. Which is saying something.

I only know broad strokes about China history so I can't say anything specific about the battle just that the Shun didn't look to be in a particularly good situation regardless of Wu Sangui?
 
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