WI: World War 2 had a South America theatre?

Deleted member 9338

Depends, why do they get involved. It is in their economic interest to stay neutral
 
It would insane for any south american government to side with the Axis as the Allies totally dominate the Seas and their economies. I could see a separate South American war though.
 
A lot of Brazilian Army officers favored Germany and Facsim. They may have been misinterpreting this, but senior US Navy officers thought were was a possibility of a pro German coup.
 
OK. I can definitely imagine either Argentina being in the Axis.

In Brazil's case, I can imagine them still being on the allied side. But mostly as an enemy mine case.
 
I know the US had Plan Rubber, which was a proposed operation to invade Brazil in 1942. They were part afraid of Brazil supporting the Axis, the other part was them wanting to use Brazilian bases. I don't know how serious it was, but I guess that's probably the most realistic way for a South American theatre. Ecuador and Peru did fight a short war in 1941, but it had nothing to do with WW2.

Of course Brazil eventually joined the War with the Allies and the Brazilian Expeditionary Force did fight in Italy.
 
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Tovarich

Banned
This may be one of those things "everybody knows" which turns out to be untrue after all, but wasn't the Argentinian export industry geared to mostly providing the UK with beef & other foodstuffs, so joining the Axis would knacker their economy?

Or did that all fall by the wayside once the US entered the war?
I don't see why it should have, goods could've been taken along the safe East coast of the Americas then joined a trans-Atlantic convoy from US or Canada, but I really don't know.

I do know that Brazil actively joined the Allies in time for the Italian campaign, so even with a 'token' force it wasn't a hasty in-at-the-death thing. Planning must have been conducted with the Wallied Command of how best to fit them into the strategy.
 
I know the US had Plan Rubber, which was a proposed operation to invade Brazil in 1942. They were part afraid of Brazil supporting the Axis, the other part was them wanting to use Brazilian bases.

Well, I only knew about an American war plan (against Brazil) which perhaps, I'm confusing it with someone else, but I think that was the 'Pot of Gold' plan...Perhaps the plan was renamed or was a different one?

This plan envisaged transporting 10,000 US soldiers in 150 planes to Brazil, to prevent to the Nazis from occupying Brazilian territory.

The plan was the result of widespread fear, at these times, about the possibility that a Nazi invasion and/or coup would happen... both in Brazil and/or its neighboring countries.
It originated, too, in the Germany's military and logistical capabilities' overestimation.

Within that context and as stated in a book written years ago, by a former Uruguayan minister (who would have had access to the original sources in the US archives), there would have been one possibility that would have started a war in South America.
This war would be caused by an official request of the United States for get authorization to build and operate a military base (guess that would be an Naval Air Station) in the Río de la Plata.

Beside of its, at least, problematic strategic utility, at least for the purposes publicly announced, by the USA, of fighting against Nazi Germany.

Clearly, in my opinion, it's only use would have been its use for prevent or counteract an Argentina explicitly aligned and / or allied with the Axis.
That possibility that arose first as a hypothesis of conflict and after that on what the USA should do to be able to deploy and/or operate their forces in this, potential, new theater of war,
in the Río de la Plata.

This war hypothesis seems to have been created by two officers of the United States Navy: Albert Benjamin and William Brereton, who would have signed a confidential memorandum on the subject.

The place proposed / selected in that memorandum, would have been the Laguna del Sauce, near to ,the then, depopulated Punta del Este, (on the border between the Rio de la Plata and the Atlantic Ocean) could be an ideal place to base and, from there deploy, hydroplanes, ready to operate in the Rio de la Plata.

Of course it goes without saying that, although for different reasons, both the political opposition in Uruguay and the Argentine government of the time were alarmed and provoked their immediate rejection of the prospect that the US Navy would set up a naval air base in the region.

According to the author, the English ambassador Eugen Millington Drake, correspondents of the New York Times and mainly Edwin Carleton Wilson, head of the US mission in Uruguay and manager of the negotiation for built the bases, had intentionally built the fear of the "Nazi plot" with the aim of defending that area of America through military bases to be installed in Uruguay.
According to A. Mercader, "the Nazi scarecrow was rising, while plans were being made to propose a deal that would include the construction of military bases on Uruguayan territory.
Bases that would have been controlled totally or partly by the United States, in this way Nazis and bases were linked from the beginning. that had its logic: ''to 'defend' Uruguay from the Nazis 'nothing better' than to build the bases with the help of a powerful ally "



It is even mentioned (in the book) as an extra source an operations manual of the FBI, published in 1942 ,especially for agents destined to Uruguay. 'This FBI manual' would reproduce the aforementioned hypothesis of conflict for the Río de la Plata.

Which, although without defining the identity from those who could control the region militarily, (supposedly) it would support that: "A small but well-organized military force in Punta del Este or Montevideo could control the mouth and the access channel to the Río de la Plata, effectively blocking all Argentine trade through the ports of Buenos Aires and Rosario... especially if an effective aviation is available."

Given that I think that if the authorization to build it by the Uruguayan parliament of the time and before a threat of this magnitude for Argentina, wouldn't be rejected ... It is very possible that (ironically), only the authorization to build it, could have created the conflict to prevent which, supposedly, would have been projected the US base.

Useful info about the WWII South America Military.
 
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American concerns about South America revolved around the possibility that the Panama Canal could be within bomber range of parts of Brazil. In theory, you could get a proxy war in Brazil and/or cone of South America in the 1939-41 time period. Whoever is a proxy of the Axis would be in for a world of hurt the instant bombs start falling on Pearl Harbor.
 
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Ian_W

Banned
Whoever is dumb enough to sign up with the Nazis gets blockaded by the RN, followed by being invaded by the US and Brazil.
 
Whoever is dumb enough to sign up with the Nazis gets blockaded by the RN, followed by being invaded by the US and Brazil.
i do have to wonder if they'd even bother, what with said South American theater being so isolated. then again, iirc there was a South American theater to World War I as well--maybe that could be used for context here?
 

Ian_W

Banned
i do have to wonder if they'd even bother, what with said South American theater being so isolated. then again, iirc there was a South American theater to World War I as well--maybe that could be used for context here?

In WW1 and 2 there were German naval units fighting near South America.
 

Tovarich

Banned
i do have to wonder if they'd even bother, what with said South American theater being so isolated. then again, iirc there was a South American theater to World War I as well--maybe that could be used for context here?

I wonder if the RN would even need to bother, if the USN had undertaken the policing of maritime trade routes in 'their' hemisphere (and if not, why was even the pre-WWI USN so massive, nevermind immediately pre late'41?)

As always, I'm ready to be corrected by somebody who knows this kind of thing (@CalBear? @JN1?) but I'd always presumed there was an arrangement of 'RN covers Suez & Cape of Good Hope, USN covers Panama & Cape Horn*' that merely became de jure rather than de facto after formal US entry to the war.


* (No offence to Chilean Naval fans intended, that bit could've just been a much larger/richer naval power offering a helping hand)
 
Unless Alien Space bats are involved this would be impossible. No country in SA was stupid enough to try that.
Also, most were either US or UK aligned (Argentina literally lived off of trading with the UK until WW1 and were still super close during WW2).
 
I know the US had Plan Rubber, which was a proposed operation to invade Brazil in 1942. They were part afraid of Brazil supporting the Axis, the other part was them wanting to use Brazilian bases. I don't know how serious it was, but I guess that's probably the most realistic way for a South American theatre. ...

Well, I only knew about an American war plan (against Brazil) which perhaps, I'm confusing it with someone else, but I think that was the 'Pot of Gold' plan...Perhaps the plan was renamed or was a different one?

This plan envisaged transporting 10,000 US soldiers in 150 planes to Brazil, to prevent to the Nazis from occupying Brazilian territory.

The plan was the result of widespread fear, at these times, about the possibility that a Nazi invasion and/or coup would happen... both in Brazil and/or its neighboring countries.
It originated, too, in the Germany's military and logistical capabilities' overestimation.

...

PLAN RUBBER was concocted by the US Navy in very early 1942. It was based on the idea/s that: 1. a pro German coup by the Brazilian Army would make it a Axis ally. 2. Germany would rebase a large group of VLR aircraft like the FW200 or the Blom & Voss flying boats on the Brazilian coast to assist German submarine operations. Admiral King took this seriously enough the March exercises by the Amphibious Forces Atlantic Fleet were a rehearsal for the Navy portion of Plan RUBBER. That is a operation to take control of the four all weather airfields on the Brazilian coast, & their auxiliaries. After some negotiation the US reached a agreement allowing some US military personnel to supplement civilian contractors on the air route across Brazil to Africa. The US and UK were also allowed to transit a significant number of military aircraft along this route, to reinforce Allied air strength in Egypt, Lybia, and India. its easy to understand in retrospect Germany had neither the aircraft nor the logistics ability to sustain a useful maritime recon group in Brazil. But, the Navy leaders of 1942 did not have our information. Since the US could do such a thing it seemed logical the Axis could too.
 
Bolivia takes its opportunity to regain access to the sea!
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