After I looked around the board, I saw that the line of Wittelsbachs that ruled Holland, Zeeland and Hainaut in the 14th & 15th centuries doesn't really feature much, so here's a thread on them.

Jacqueline/Jakoba of Bavaria was the last of their line, and despite being married four times, she left no surviving issue (only a stillborn son with husband number 3). At her death the inheritance passed to the Burgundian Valois.

Her uncle, Johan III 'zonder Genade' (the Merciless (love medieval nicknames like this:winkytongue:)) was the successor to her father preferred by Sigmund, Holy Roman Emperor (due to the fact that Jacqueline was married to the French dauphin and then the nephew of the duke of Burgundy, the duke of Brabant)) and married to his niece (the duke of Brabant's stepmother). However, the marriage was likewise childless, and so in the 1430s, Valois-Burgundy inherited the lot.

Now, somewhere (I can't find it now) I read that Jacqueline had a legitimate brother born before her but died shortly after she was born. Which would make things interesting (although her uncle having a son that inherited both dad's claims to Holland, Zeeland and Hainaut and mom's claims to Luxemburg would be cool), or her having a son by her disaster of a second marriage who could inherit both her territories plus Brabant etc, would likewise, but then it wouldn't really be a Wittelsbach Netherlands, now would it?

BTW: My idea revolved around a Netherlands divided between the house of Wittelsbach-Straubing (Jacqueline's branch), Valois-Burgundy and maybe the house of Luxemburg getting a punch in.

So, what if Willem VI of Bavaria-Holland (Jacqueline's father) or his brother, Johan III, had had surviving male issue?
 
No takers?

It's just been nighttime bro. Also hmm... A dynastic Union between Bavaria and the Netherlands? Well
1. This would drastically increase the importance in both Bavaria AND the Netherlands. They ain't just some small duchies anymore.
2. Austria probably would want to take it, being Austria
3. Maybe a chance at keeping them Catholic?
 

yourworstnightmare

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The Wittelsbach was at the time divided into several branches. However would be interesting if the Wittelsbach branches at some point would reunite. We'd have Bavaria, the Palatinate and Holland- Hainaut in a personal union.

Of course it would be equally interesting if Holland- Hainaut survived as an independent entity. However if Burgundy still inherits Brabant- Limburg I can see there being a fierce rivalry between them. But of course with the Hook and Cod war butterflied away (at least in the OTL form), since there would not be a valid Burgundian claim on Holland, there could be much more butterflies. Do anyone know why Philip I of Brabant died so young? If he had sons we'd have no Burgundians in Brabant either.
 
It's just been nighttime bro. Also hmm... A dynastic Union between Bavaria and the Netherlands? Well
1. This would drastically increase the importance in both Bavaria AND the Netherlands. They ain't just some small duchies anymore.
2. Austria probably would want to take it, being Austria
3. Maybe a chance at keeping them Catholic?

Sorry:oops:

2) Being Austria maybe, but not likely. It was only once they actually had a reason to get involved with the Netherlands that they set up shop there. So, at the dawn of the 15th century, with the house of Luxemburg ruling the empire as well as owning land in the Low Countries (the duchy of Luxemburg) might be more interested - even though they are likewise on the way out
3) A POD in the 1390/1400s means that the Reformation is going to look entirely different, possibly even unrecognizable in comparison with OTL's

The Wittelsbach was at the time divided into several branches. However would be interesting if the Wittelsbach branches at some point would reunite. We'd have Bavaria, the Palatinate and Holland- Hainaut in a personal union.

Of course it would be equally interesting if Holland- Hainaut survived as an independent entity. However if Burgundy still inherits Brabant- Limburg I can see there being a fierce rivalry between them. But of course with the Hook and Cod war butterflied away (at least in the OTL form), since there would not be a valid Burgundian claim on Holland, there could be much more butterflies. Do anyone know why Philip I of Brabant died so young? If he had sons we'd have no Burgundians in Brabant either.

I'm not sure about the circumstances surrounding his death - maybe @Janprimus knows something - but I know he was betrothed to Yolande d'Anjou (OTL duchess of Brittany) at the time (her OTL husband was engaged to Bona of Savoy) of his death. That said, how might Holland's policies differ from Burgundy's with regard to foreign affairs (pro French or pro Imperial, for instance)? How might there being friction (because it's the most likely scenario) between Holland and Burgundy influence matters?
 
If there is a Wittelsbach Holland-Hainaut versus a Valois Brabant-Limburg then there will be a fierce rivalry up and down the Rhine considering the Palatinate and Freecounty!
 
If there is a Wittelsbach Holland-Hainaut versus a Valois Brabant-Limburg then there will be a fierce rivalry up and down the Rhine considering the Palatinate and Freecounty!

I was wondering if something like this wouldn't happen. But could the Wittelsbachs who ruled the Palatinate inherit Holland-Hainaut via female line at some point? Or would the Palatinate mainbranch have to go extinct that the Wittelsbach-Straubings inherit? I know Holy Roman Emperor Sigmund rather enfeoffed Jacqueline's uncle as her father's heir OTL, and when the Bavaria-Landshuts tried to marry their only heiress to the Elector Palatine the rest of the Wittelsbachs said hell to the no and used salic law to block the inheritance?

Also, how will Jacqueline/Jakobea's marriages be affected TTL? Especially since she's not the heiress anymore?
 
Something else Ive been wondering is how this might affect the Burgundian Valois (what with them not holding the entirety of the Netherlands TTL). Would they be seen internationally as less/more threatening? How might this affect a TTL Mary of Burgundy's betrothal or TTL the dukes hankering for a royal crown with that they don't rule all of the Netherlands (as I understand it, 'king of Frisia' was one of the royal titles they could've gotten without the emperor having to disgorge the kingdom of Burgundy's crown)
 
I was looking at the Wittelsbach family tree, and it seems that even what later became the electorate of Bavaria was a bit of a fluke, since up until 1500, both Bavaria-Munich and Bavaria-Ingolstadt had surviving heirs. Then Georg the Rich's son died, and he married his only surviving child off to a Palatine cousin, and the duke of Bavaria-Munich became the ruler of the entirety.

Now, to my mind, as long as the Burgundian dukes are siding with the English, the French are going to try and get the Wittelsbach-Straubings onside. Willem VI was originally engaged to Marie de Valois (1370-1377), there was even a marriage treaty drawn up and everything. So, this brother of Jacqueline, let's call him Lodewijk/Ludwig(same as Wilhelm's oldest bastard - since there's already a Johan of Bavaria-Straubing and to avoid confusion) or Albert, is possibly going to marry a Valois princess if one is available (depending on his age, if he marries around 1410, then Marie, Prioress of Poissy and Catherine de Valois are the only two daughters of Charles VI left single). If he marries into France, then his dad might decide to marry Jacqueline off elsewhere. Perhaps she marries her second husband as her first husband then, as a way of keeping the peace between Burgundy and Holland.

Or, the other way around can work too. Jacqueline marries the duc de Touraine (or perhaps even one of the older brothers, since she's not heiress TTL), and Lodewijk/Albert gets hitched to a princess (maybe from Luxemburg (Elisabeth of Gorlitz) or Guelders/Cleves/Savoy/Bavarian cousin). Either way, assuming that he has kids (and considering his double first cousin, Philippe the Good's impressive list of bastards, I'd say it's pretty likely), the three counties are secure - for now. Now, in an older TL that @Parma did, Jacqueline has a son with the duke of Brabant, and said son marries a princess from Guelders, I don't think it's impossible that the Wittelsbachs aren't going to confine themselves to marrying into the various branches of the Valois, and are going to seek alliances abroad. England might see them as a good power to play off against a less-powerful Burgundy TTL and the Luxemburgs/Habsburgs could see them as worth cultivating an alliance with to stick it to either Valois branch (France or Burgundy).
 
I've just unearthed an interesting candidate to marry Lodewijk. OTL there was a bastard daughter of Charles III of Navarre. Now, she's listed in the genealogy as having married a Luis de Baviera (Louis of Bavaria) in 1417, but it gives no further information on either party. The only legitimate Louis's of Bavaria that I can find are Queen Isabeau's brother and her nephew, the others were either married or too young at the time. Would it be so unthinkable for Lodewijk to marry a legitimate Navarrese infanta? OTL the sisters of Queen Blanche married a Bourbon, an Armagnac, a de Foix and somewhere else. Inspite of there being plans to marry a Castilian infante (presumably Juan II of Castile) to a Navarrese infanta.
 
Here's a rough map (based on what the situation on the ground would look like (I think)). Excuse my map making skills, I used MS Paint:eek::oops: and a map from wikipedia

Green is Wittelsbach
Blue is Valois-Burgundy
Pink is Valois-Anjou/Lorraine
Purple is Luxemburg
 

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With Bavaria-Straubing owns the middle section and Valois-Burgundy the coast (for all intents and purposes) with the duchy of Burgundy proper, is this at all possible? And what differences would it make in the future of the Netherlands?
 
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