WI: Wittelsbach Hungary

Old1812 · Jan 17, 2020

In 1301, the Hungarian crown was offered to Otto, duke of Lower Bavaria, grandson of prior king Béla IV of Hungary; Otto didn't accept until 1305, however. Wencesalus III of Bohemia, Otto's rival, renounced the Hungarian throne, and Otto arrived in Buda in disguise.

Otto was crowned king, taking the name Béla V. His reign was troubled from the beginning, as his opponent Charles of Anjou took several critical cities, including Buda. In 1307 Otto went to the Voivode of Transylvania (to seek help?) and promptly got himself imprisoned. Otto abdicated the following year after being released and returned to Lower Bavaria.

Is it possible to salvage Otto's "reign", and get a stable Wittelsbach Hungary for at least a century or two?

@Jan Olbracht @Fehérvári @Kellan Sullivan

Old1812 · Jan 17, 2020

I only know very little about this, so I'm not sure what there is to change here. Maybe Otto is able to get more of the nobles on his side earlier, beefing up his armies and allowing him to defeat the Angevins?

On the consequences side, all this could be very important if Louis IV is still elected Holy Roman Emperor in a few years.

Old1812 · Jan 18, 2020

As Otto supported Adolf of Nassau, maybe he could support Otto if we wins at Göllheim?

Old1812 · Jan 30, 2020

Pope Boniface VIII supported Charles of Anjou as the legitimate ruler of Hungary in 1303, with the Pope dying later in the year. If he dies just a few months earlier, how much does this help Otto's case?

Kellan Sullivan · Jan 30, 2020

Old1812 said:
Pope Boniface VIII supported Charles of Anjou as the legitimate ruler of Hungary in 1303, with the Pope dying later in the year. If he dies just a few months earlier, how much does this help Otto's case?

Considering that Boniface's successor was the one who moved the papacy to Avignon and essentially became Philippe le Bel's lapdog, I don't see papal support for Otto-Béla being forthcoming against a Capetian rival.

Maybe Boniface never gets elected? If your POD is back in Adolf's reign, perhaps a different candidate is chosen to either St. Celestine or Boniface

Ultima Ratio · Jan 30, 2020

There is something to be considered. Hungary at this time was barely united, ruled by powerful oligarchs, royal power was extremely weak. Charles of Anjou proved to be a very capable ruler who beat the nobles in line and centralized royal power.

Looking at Otto's OTL track record, I cannot really see him do this, so a Wittelsbach Hungary at best would mean an extremely weak state.

Old1812 · Jan 30, 2020

Ultima Ratio said:
There is something to be considered. Hungary at this time was barely united, ruled by powerful oligarchs, royal power was extremely weak. Charles of Anjou proved to be a very capable ruler who beat the nobles in line and centralized royal power.

Looking at Otto's OTL track record, I cannot really see him do this, so a Wittelsbach Hungary at best would mean an extremely weak state.

That would seem to make him even more popular for the nobles, a weak ruler who won't challenge the magnates any time soon.

Kellan Sullivan · Jan 30, 2020

Old1812 said:
That would seem to make him even more popular for the nobles, a weak ruler who won't challenge the magnates any time soon.

Just because Otto's weak dosn't mean that his son will be. I guess it also depends on whether Otto-Bela marries as OTL and has his OTL issue or not.

@Monter

Old1812 · Jan 30, 2020

Kellan Sullivan said:
Just because Otto's weak dosn't mean that his son will be. I guess it also depends on whether Otto-Bela marries as OTL and has his OTL issue or not.

@Monter

Maybe Otto-Béla marries one of Adolf's daughters?

Kellan Sullivan · Mar 6, 2020

I have a question about a second wife for Otto-Bela. What would stop him from doing what Rudolf of Habsburg did in Bohemia and marrying the late Andràs III's widow, the 19yo Agnes of Habsburg? Would Albrecht of Germany REALLY back his nephew (Charles of Anjou) over his son-in-law/former brother-in-law? Charles of Anjou, as the pope's choice, wasn't exactly popular in Hungary FWIG. So would the pope name him as heir if he DIDN'T have Albrecht's support?

@krieger @Monter @Jan Olbracht

krieger · Mar 6, 2020

Kellan Sullivan said:
I have a question about a second wife for Otto-Bela. What would stop him from doing what Rudolf of Habsburg did in Bohemia and marrying the late Andràs III's widow, the 19yo Agnes of Habsburg? Would Albrecht of Germany REALLY back his nephew (Charles of Anjou) over his son-in-law/former brother-in-law? Charles of Anjou, as the pope's choice, wasn't exactly popular in Hungary FWIG. So would the pope name him as heir if he DIDN'T have Albrecht's support?

@krieger @Monter @Jan Olbracht

Yes, he supported him before Albert switched sides. For Otto/Bela to remain on the throne, the best bet would be Paul Subić killing Charles Robert when he landed in Croatia.

Kellan Sullivan · Mar 6, 2020

krieger said:
Yes, he supported him before Albert switched sides. For Otto/Bela to remain on the throne, the best bet would be Paul Subić killing Charles Robert when he landed in Croatia.

Wouldn't that be difficult since Subić is the one who "brought" the Anjous over in the first place?

krieger · Mar 6, 2020

Kellan Sullivan said:
Wouldn't that be difficult since Subić is the one who "brought" the Anjous over in the first place?

I read that he contemplated getting rid of Charles and only abstained after meeting him in person.

Old1812 · Mar 6, 2020

krieger said:
Yes, he supported him before Albert switched sides. For Otto/Bela to remain on the throne, the best bet would be Paul Subić killing Charles Robert when he landed in Croatia.

I suspect Subić would have supported whoever he thought would have left him alone. Perhaps if Subić decides Otto will be more likely to not interfere in Croatia, he'll go ahead with offing Anjou.

Kellan Sullivan said:
I have a question about a second wife for Otto-Bela. What would stop him from doing what Rudolf of Habsburg did in Bohemia and marrying the late Andràs III's widow, the 19yo Agnes of Habsburg? Would Albrecht of Germany REALLY back his nephew (Charles of Anjou) over his son-in-law/former brother-in-law? Charles of Anjou, as the pope's choice, wasn't exactly popular in Hungary FWIG. So would the pope name him as heir if he DIDN'T have Albrecht's support?

@krieger @Monter @Jan Olbracht

Interesting, wouldn't this marriage put him firmly in the Habsburg camp, against a rival such as Adolf of Nassau? I suspect Agnes will hardly be pleased to have life as a nun disturbed, but I suppose no one will mind.

Kellan Sullivan · Mar 6, 2020

Old1812 said:
Interesting, wouldn't this marriage put him firmly in the Habsburg camp, against a rival such as Adolf of Nassau? I suspect Agnes will hardly be pleased to have life as a nun disturbed, but I suppose no one will mind.

Not neccesarily. Otto-Bela and Albrecht can still have a falling out. Or it might rattle on until Albrecht is murdered or Rudolf tries to take Bohemia. You mentioned that you plan for the Nassaus to get it TTL, OTL Rudolf still married the dowager queen and pressed his rights over those of Vaclav III's sisters. Habsburg support and Habsburg rivalry are two very different things.