WI: White Russians win the Russian Civil War?

[Wolfpaw]

Sebag-Montefiore references it in his book Potemkin: Catherine the Great's Imperial Partner

 

[CanadianGoose]

Sebag-Montefiore references it in his book Potemkin: Catherine the Great's Imperial Partner

Why don't you use Chinese medieval sources to describe European history? Those are almost as reliable.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/article-preview?article_id=8586

 

[Wolfpaw]

Why don't you use Chinese medieval sources to describe European history? Those are almost as reliable.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/article-preview?article_id=8586

Oh yeah, I forgot; you can only write about another country and its people and its history if you're from there, knowledge and research and skills and background and qualifications be damned! Duh! No, no, you're right. That was just so silly of me to forget.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/review/7513650.stm



Can we please get back to talking about what would happen if the Whites had won and just stop talking about all of this Poland shit? My whole argument was that a fascist White Russia would most likely be very hostile to an independent Poland for nationalistic/irredentist/imperialist reasons. I'm very sorry that this whole thing blew way out of proportion.


I still contend that you get a sort of weaker version of Weimar in Russia with a fascistic or ultranationalist group (supported tacitly by the military and the Orthodox Church) taking power in a populist coup. Clerical fascism could arise with a vengeance.

 

[CanadianGoose]

I'm sorry to offend your sensibility wolfpaw122, but outstanding claim (as in "countering everything said about the issue by 1st 10 pages of Google search") is better be supported by more credible source that an author with huge axe to grind (as a rule of thimb, every claim of every author writing about Stalin and Stalinism have to be cross-checked against other sources, as this historical period stirs all kinds of passions in people and they tend to become opinionated warriors, ready to "improve" the truth to advance whatever theory they support) and zero credibility in said area (Russian linguistics). So yes, if hundreds of Russian sources refer to aforementioned proverb as "old Soviet saying" or "from 1970s" and lone cowboy Mr. Montefiore claims it is from almost two hundred years earlier, I prefer to believe Russian sources.

My whole argument was that a fascist White Russia would most likely be very hostile to an independent Poland for nationalistic/irredentist/imperialist reasons.

White Russia does not necessarily mean "fascist". It is just one of possible outcomes. And attitude toward Poland is hard to predict. After all, secession of Finland did not stir a lot of passion among Russian imperialists. And then there're different degrees of hostility. IOTL Poland did it's level best to keep itself in Soviet crosshair.

I still contend that you get a sort of weaker version of Weimar in Russia with a fascistic or ultranationalist group (supported tacitly by the military and the Orthodox Church) taking power in a populist coup. Clerical fascism could arise with a vengeance.

I would say that KMT China is slightly better comparison. Russia does not have such strong regionalist tradition as China, so regional leaders would be better controlled by central government, but said government would be weak. Another country to look at if you're looking for possible analogies with "White Russia" is interwar Romania. Yes, there were Iron Guards and there was Antonescu and they had this kind of mixed relationships.

 

[Wolfpaw]

I know "White Russia" doesn't mean fascist. That's why I said "a fascist White Russia."

If they do not succumb to fascism, (though I think that, given the era and the condition Russia would find itself in, it is entirely plausible, even likely) I think you'll see either a weak central government with stronger regional ones (like what was developing under Yeltsin), or a strong centralized government along an Ataturk line, like Kerensky was sort of going for.

And I would posit that the Polish would be no less hostile to a White Russia than a Soviet one, especially if the Whites tried to mount something like the Polish-Soviet War (which could perhaps occur if the Whites win early enough; I'm not sure the French or British would say "boo" if a White Russia retook Poland since I believe it was Wilson that called for an independent Poland, though I could be wrong). And if Pilsudski comes to power, he would in all likelihood not have any sort of diminished Russophobia; he pretty much believed that Russia would always represent a threat to Polish sovereignty.

 

[Wolfpaw]

an author with huge axe to grind (as a rule of thimb, every claim of every author writing about Stalin and Stalinism have to be cross-checked against other sources, as this historical period stirs all kinds of passions in people and they tend to become opinionated warriors, ready to "improve" the truth to advance whatever theory they support) and zero credibility in said area (Russian linguistics).

It's clear that you've never read any of Montefiore's work since, if you did, you would know that he certainly does not have an axe to grind with Stalin (in fact he's gotten some smatterings of criticism for humanizing Stalin, as one often does when one humanizes those history regards as monsters), that he did make sure his sources were correct (the bibliography and reference sections in Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar are 200+ pages and includes hundreds of documents and interviews), and he actually does speak Russian (and Georgian).