WI: White Russians win the Russian Civil War?

[I Blame Communism]

Oh good. I fully expect a war over the Lwow corridor; those damn Ukranians surrounding it just HAVE to go.

You what? My ideal scenario would be west-Ukrainian autonomy within Poland. Wester Ukrainians are very distinct anyway, and so this preserves them whilst leaving one of the principal Polish cities in Poland. Of course interbellum Poland had an enormously poor record on minority rights, but they weren't the Nazis and didn't ethnically cleanse Ukrainians, so calm down. In the long run, hopefully, democracy and autonomy could be establised.

 

[RGB]

You what?

I jest, that's what. It just struck me as funny to have an isolated Lwow surrounded by a Galicia.

My ideal scenario would be west-Ukrainian autonomy within Poland.

Sooooo...no self-determination then, after all?

In the long run, hopefully, democracy and autonomy could be establised.

Yes. Under One World Government!

 

[I Blame Communism]

We've had this conversation before, IBC. If Denikin had managed to take Moscow in 1919 (which he would have had he been victorious at the rather close Battle of Orel), the Reds would have lost. I'm not saying that whatever state the Whites hammered out would be pretty (since, as you pointed out, there were so many competing factions) but the White Movement (not "Army," "Movement") could have won.

Hmm. I'm not sure, but this thread is no place for that discussion and this is as good a starting point as any, so let's work from it. Denikin in Moscow, Yudenich in St.Petersburg, and I think they'll weave some sort of big tent. Kolchak can get in it or exit Russia, and you'll certainly see some very sharp "residual" violence in various places such as central asia.

 

[I Blame Communism]

I jest, that's what. It just struck me as funny to have an isolated Lwow surrounded by a Galicia.

That's not what I was advocating.

Sooooo...no self-determination then, after all?

Self-determination is an extremely tricky business. I favour it where possible, but there are exceptions (for example, given that Stresemann of all people wages trade war on Poland, there's a strong argument that in the 20s they actually did need Danzig open to their trade). Eastern Galicia is a tricky one. There's a big Polish minority, it's capital is a Polish city, and the Ukrainians are pretty distinct. My ideal would be autonomous west Ukraine in poland, autonomous Dniepr Ukraine in Russia, but my ideal my not necessarily correspond to what's achievable.

Yes. Under One World Government!

I have no desire whatever for one world government. To I have to append "in Poland" to everything isay now? In Poland?

 

[Extrasolar Angel]

Actually, I believe you'll find that your facts are wrong.

I checked the dates-they are correct.

Do you mean they didn't plan to pump it full of Russian settlers? Because they were doing that elsewhere (Central Asia, for example.)

And ? Was Poland in Central Asia ? The bottom line is that you in effect claimed Hitler was more friendly to Poles then Russia, which is just absurd to write. I will remind you once again that Nazi Germany intended to fully Germanise all Polish territories, something Russia never considered.

Instead, they pursued the policy of Russification in Poland with the expressed intent of wiping out Polish culture.

Please do explain what notorious intent of destroying Polish culture was intented by Russian Tsar in 1897 when he allowed to build a statute of Adam Mickiewicz-the Polish national poet-in Warsaw. Were the 4,000 Polish volunteers in week after declaration of Polish legion in Russian Army in August 1914 seeking to destroy their own culture ?

The main issue wasn't border disputes, it was a long-held Russian belief the Poland belonged to Russia by right.

On 29.03 1917 the Russian Government declared Poland's right to exist as free, independent country in ethnic borders. Doesn't seem they had much trouble with this...

I favour it where possible, but there are exceptions (for example, given that Stresemann of all people wages trade war on Poland, there's a strong argument that in the 20s they actually did need Danzig open to their trade).

Or perhaps his nationalism was focused on Poland. Anyway the city was not part of Poland if that is what you mean.


I favour it where possible, but there are exceptions (for example, given that Stresemann of all people wages trade war on Poland, there's a strong argument that in the 20s they actually did need Danzig open to their trade). Eastern Galicia is a tricky one. There's a big Polish minority, it's capital is a Polish city, and the Ukrainians are pretty distinct. My ideal would be autonomous west Ukraine in poland, autonomous Dniepr Ukraine in Russia, but my ideal my not necessarily correspond to what's achievable.

....thus think that in the best case Poland should have Lwow and Wilno

Besides Lwow region, all those "Kresy" areas were actually harmfull to Polish state. Underdeveloped, full of hostile minorites, with no resources and poor infrastructure. almost zero industry. And of course large uneducated population They required policing and investments, that were needed elsewhere. I wouldn't be surprised if they costed more then they brought to the budget.
Poland would be better off without majority of them, except perhaps Lwow, and focusing on the Western direction.

 

[Wolfpaw]

If the POD is Denikin's taking of Moscow (which could easily lead to Yudenich taking Petrograd) then Wrangel is still considered the chief White. Kolchak is in charge of everything east (and a little bit west) of the Urals and so has a lot of clout. You'll probably have a few Red versions of the Tambov Rebellion, Central Asia's going to be a nasty place for a while, and there's this crazy motherfucker pillaging Mongolia, but by and large the White Movement has consolidated its control over the remnants of the Russian (minus Poland, Finland, and the Baltics).

The meeting is uncomfortable. People won't stand for a return to autocracy, but all present are uneasy with parliamentary democracy and view the Republic as a bad joke. Plus, the country needs a figurehead and it's not like any of the leading Whites are anti-monarchist. Well, at least none who have clout.

So they hold a zemsky sobor and elect the universally popular Grand Duke Nicholas as Tsar Nicholas III (the Reds really only hated him because he was a Romanov).

Nicholas was a friend to parliamentary rule and he reforms the Duma and does his damndest to turn Russia into a functioning constitutional monarchy that basically mirrors the British system. The White leaders keep their power, though, by establishing the Privy Council (or White Council depending on how self-righteous you want them to be) to "advise the government on important matters." It's basically a way for the White leaders and the military to retain a measure of control over the government, like the General Staff tried to do in Weimar Germany.

Wrangel becomes the first prime minister, gets himself a coalition cabinet largely made up of centrists, liberals, a smattering of conservatives, and delegates from the labor-oriented parties who aren't screaming for revolution.

Denikin and Yudenich content themselves with running the military, Kolchak becomes more ambitious and becomes a figurehead of the right-wing (again, like Ludendorff.)

This country, however, is almost doomed to economic and political instability, like the Weimar Republic, with political street gangs and rampant corruption, etc. Maybe Wrangel retires because he's sick of the whole thing or gets popped by a disgruntled Red later on, I dunno. You'll see people like Milyukov, Guchkov, Ryabushinsky trying really hard to hold everything together.

With Nicholas III dying in 1929 and the Great Depression hitting a still-fragile Russia, you'll see a rise in extremism again. Reds will be more accepted, but fascist movements will be, too. Kolchak might stage a coup or putsch or something to take power or "restore order", or just win in an election. Under him (and a Tsar sympathetic to fascism, Cyril) you'll see something like Mladorossi come about, maybe even under the charismatic and handsome (though maybe a bit clownishly flamboyant and idealistic) Kazembek.

This fascism will be more akin to Franco's Spain than anything the Nazis cooked up. Pogroms against Jews and other minorities, Orthodox clerical fascism, anti-parliamentarianism, and demands for the return of all territory lost in WWI. Hell, they'd probably also embrace pan-Slavism and want the whole of Slavic Europe.

Long story short, Poland and the Baltics ought to be very nervous. Maybe even Czechoslovakia and Romania, too (that pan-Slavism, you know).

That's all for now; my hands hurt.

 

[Extrasolar Angel]

Take into consideration:
White Russia means shift of France to Russia as counterbalance against Germany. That will considerably change the face of Central Europe and alliances like Little Entente, or Polish-Romanian treaty which was aimed against Soviets.

Pogroms against Jews and other minorities, Orthodox clerical fascism, anti-parliamentarianism, and demands for the return of all territory lost in WWI. Hell, they'd probably also embrace pan-Slavism and want the whole of Slavic Europe.

Long story short, Poland and the Baltics ought to be very nervous. Maybe even Czechoslovakia and Romania, too (that pan-Slavism, you know).

Why would Czechoslovakia fear panslavism ? They were friendly to it, you know. Also unless you mean minorities in Romania-Romanians are not slavic.

Oh and if they are pan-slavists from radical Orthodoxy-they wouldn't want all territory lost in WW1.

 

[I Blame Communism]

Besides Lwow region, all those "Kresy" areas were actually harmfull to Polish state. Underdeveloped, full of hostile minorites, with no resources and poor infrastructure. almost zero industry. And of course large uneducated population They required policing and investments, that were needed elsewhere. I wouldn't be surprised if they costed more then they brought to the budget.
Poland would be better off without majority of them, except perhaps Lwow, and focusing on the Western direction.

Thing is, I favour individual needs over state ones. The Polish majority Wilno area deserved the attention of the Polish state, whatever its budgetary value. I hope by "focusing on the western direction" you mean in a cultural or internal sense, because if there's one interbellum Poland I really don't like i's one that cheerfully throws away Polish territories while snaffling up German ones.

 

[Wolfpaw]

And ? Was Poland in Central Asia ?

What in the hell are you talking about? When you said "like Germany," I assumed you meant the German intent to fill Poland up with German settlers. The Russians didn't plan on doing this. If that isn't what you meant, then my mistake. But what did you mean?

The bottom line is that you in effect claimed Hitler was more friendly to Poles then Russia, which is just absurd to write.

I never claimed that, nor would I. You're putting words in my mouth to help your own incorrect argument. Nor did I ever mention Poles; that was you. I said that Russia was MORE HOSTILE TO THE IDEA OF AN INDEPENDENT POLAND.

That's what I said.
Twice.
And you misunderstood and misquoted me.
Twice.

I will remind you once again that Nazi Germany intended to fully Germanise all Polish territories, something Russia never considered.

Okay, if you don't mean "replace the native population with German settlers," then please define "Germanize." Because that's what I said earlier, and you seemed to have attacked it. The Russians did seek to Russianize Polish territory, though this was through the destruction of Polish culture, not ethnic resettlement.

Please do explain what notorious intent of destroying Polish culture was intented by Russian Tsar in 1897 when he allowed to build a statute of Adam Mickiewicz-the Polish national poet-in Warsaw.

I really don't want to have to go into the whole process of Russification. This'll help you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification#Poland_and_Lithuania.

And why did the Tsar allow a statue to be erected? My question is whether he even knew about it at all. Probably becasue of intense local pressure? Or hell, maybe the Russian authorities really liked this guy's poetry. I don't know, but I do know that the Russians sought to eradicate Polish culture, and history will support me in this.

Were the 4,000 Polish volunteers in week after declaration of Polish legion in Russian Army in August 1914 seeking to destroy their own culture ?

I wouldn't say that. But I would feel safe in comparing them to Jews who volunteered to fight in the Wehrmacht during the beginning of World War II, or Germans who fought for Napoleon or Irishmen who fought for Britain. Russia was the only country the Poles had, regardless of whether or not the regime in charge was friendly to them. Just because they were Polish doesn't mean they weren't patriotic subjects of the Russian Empire.

On 29.03 1917 the Russian Government declared Poland's right to exist as free, independent country in ethnic borders. Doesn't seem they had much trouble with this...

What was this declaration? Give me a source. Because I can pretty much guarantee you that it was made in a desperate attempt to garner Polish support and help defeat the Central Powers.

 

[I Blame Communism]

And why did the Tsar allow a statue to be erected? My question is whether he even knew about it at all. Probably becasue of intense local pressure? Or hell, maybe the Russian authorities really liked this guy's poetry. I don't know, but I do know that the Russians sought to eradicate Polish culture, and history will support me in this.

Russian policy has not permenantly stuck in 1864. The Tsarist state was in its nationalities policy almost wholly pragmatic, and had given up the idea of culturally Russifying established literary nations when it became obvious it wans't going to work.

I wouldn't say that. But I would feel safe in comparing them to Jews who volunteered to fight in the Wehrmacht during the beginning of World War II, or Germans who fought for Napoleon or Irishmen who fought for Britain. Russia was the only country the Poles had, regardless of whether or not the regime in charge was friendly to them. Just because they were Polish doesn't mean they weren't patriotic subjects of the Russian Empire.

Actually, there was a whole pro-Russian faction led by Roman Dmowski, Pilsudski's arch-nemesis, who favoured Russia as most likely to unite the most Polish lands and encouraged Polish participation in the Russian war effort. It wasn't just individual crazy Russophiles and I hardly think Russia was "the only country they had", since Poland is notorious for being the nation which is in exile every other day and still carrying on.

 

[wormyguy]

Why is it that every thread about Russia ends up being about Poland?

 

[Wolfpaw]

4,000 (which isn't a whole lot, by the way) Poles could have felt that way. And Poland had been gone since the beginning of the 1800s; most Poles had only ever known Russian rule. And Polish nationalism and feelings of "my true country lives on in exile" probably weren't too prevalent amongst the Polish peasantry.

One must remember that Dmowski was also very pragmatic when it came to Russo-Polish relations. He favored Russia over Germany because he saw her Russification policies as clumsy and doomed to failure, whereas the Germanization policies he viewed as having the potential for far more success. So basically he supported Russia because he felt that Polish culture could still survive in her empire, whereas the Germans would do away with it. Also, Dmowski felt that an independent Poland would swiftly become dominated by Germans, whereas a merely autonomous Poland would retain its Slavic cultural shield.

And while usually I would agree with you in the pragmatism department, Russia was rather ham-fisted when it came to Russification. Polish was banned in schools and offices in 1880, and I would like to remind you that very few (basically none) of the other Russification laws were ever revoked.

 

[Extrasolar Angel]

The Polish majority Wilno area deserved the attention of the Polish state, whatever its budgetary value.

The question if there was a Polish majority is debatable, there was a very big number of Jewish population. Also I personally am of the opinion that individual needs should not endanger peace and stability.

I hope by "focusing on the western direction" you mean in a cultural or internal sense, because if there's one interbellum Poland I really don't like i's one that cheerfully throws away Polish territories while snaffling up German ones.

There were enough Polish territories in the West for Poland to regain.

What in the hell are you talking about? When you said "like Germany," I assumed you meant the German intent to fill Poland up with German settlers. The Russians didn't plan on doing this. If that isn't what you meant, then my mistake. But what did you mean?

So in other words-your comparision with Hitler being "better" for Poles then Russians was fully absurd ?

I never claimed that, nor would I. You're putting words in my mouth to help your own incorrect argument. Nor did I ever mention Poles; that was you. I said that Russia was MORE HOSTILE TO THE IDEA OF AN INDEPENDENT POLAND.

That's what I said.
Twice.
And you misunderstood and misquoted me.

Your own words:
The Russians regarded an independent Poland with even more outrage, disgust, and revulsion than Hitler could even dream of.

Maybe I am stupid, but I fail to see how Russians who proposed an autonomous Poland with united Polish regions are worse then Hitler who wanted Poland exterminated from Poles.

The Russians did seek to Russianize Polish territory, though this was through the destruction of Polish culture, not ethnic resettlement.

Really ? Please do give me a source where it is stated that Russians wanted to destroy Polish culture, rather then introduce their language as official and oppose Polish patriotism. As I mentioned Adam Mickiewicz was given a statue by tsar himself in late XIX century-so something is not correct in your statement....

This'll help you

Wikipedia ?

Or hell, maybe the Russian authorities really liked this guy's poetry.

You don't know who he is ? I mean like, one of the core national figures in Polish culture ?

I don't know, but I do know that the Russians sought to eradicate Polish culture, and history will support me in this.

Great be my guest-source please that Russians wanted to destroy Polish culture.

But I would feel safe in comparing them to Jews who volunteered to fight in the Wehrmacht during the beginning of World War II

Godwin Law ? May I remind you such comparision is absurd because Poles were neither subject of racial laws as Jews were, nor was Russian Empire an genocidal totalitarian state.

Russia was the only country the Poles had

Actually Germany and Austro-Hungary were the other two. You might consider why there weren't volunteers in Germany for Polish units.
Anyhow seeing how with all due respect you don't have a great deal of knowledge in that particular area of history, I will focus on responces by other people.

 

[Wolfpaw]

So in other words-your comparision with Hitler being "better" for Poles then Russians was fully absurd ?
Your own words:
The Russians regarded an independent Poland with even more outrage, disgust, and revulsion than Hitler could even dream of. Maybe I am stupid, but I fail to see how Russians who proposed an autonomous Poland with united Polish regions are worse then Hitler who wanted Poland exterminated from Poles.

I never said Hitler was better for Poles. Who brought up Poles? You did, that's who. No shit Hitler wasn't better for Poles. I never said he was. Please refrain from shoving false words into my mouth in order to make me look like some sort of boogeyman.

I've come to realize by your posts that you don't seem to have a full grasp of the English language. Nor do you like to define "Germanization" or "Germanize." You know what you really ought to do? You should probably figure out that there's a difference between being hostile to a country's independence, and being hostile to an ethnicity. Because, you know, if you figured that out I bet it would just be peachy!

And I read about that statement of August 14, 1914, by the by. Yeah, it was issued by Grand Duke Nicholas and its wording was painfully vague. In fact, when Dmowski pressed the Tsar and the government about these promises for autonomy, he either never got a straight answer or was out and out rebuffed.

Really ? Please do give me a source where it is stated that Russians wanted to destroy Polish culture, rather then introduce their language as official and oppose Polish patriotism. As I mentioned Adam Mickiewicz was given a statue by tsar himself in late XIX century-so something is not correct in your statement....

Great be my guest-source please that Russians wanted to destroy Polish culture.

Okay, here's another. Or better yet, crack open a goddamned history book. Tsar Alexander III (and his successor Nicholas II) aimed to eradicate non-Russian cultural identities. And you know what the weird thing is? National identity has a lot to do with language and patriotism.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/russification.htm

Wikipedia ?

Really? You're one of those people who just dismisses Wikipedia? Obviously there are other sources; this one just seemed the most concise. But no, if it's so beneath you then by all means ignore it.

Godwin Law ? May I remind you such comparision is absurd because Poles were neither subject of racial laws as Jews were, nor was Russian Empire an genocidal totalitarian state.

I was making a comparison to an oppressed minority that tried to fight for the very country that was oppressing it. You want other versions? I gave them to you. Irish nationalists who fought for Britain, Indian nationalists who fought for Britain, blacks who fought for the Confederacy. This phenomenon is not something new.

Actually Germany and Austro-Hungary were the other two. You might consider why there weren't volunteers in Germany for Polish units.
Anyhow seeing how with all due respect you don't have a great deal of knowledge in that particular area of history, I will focus on responces by other people.

No duh there was Germany and Austria-Hungary. I just meant in the case of Poles who lived in Russia. And why weren't there many Polish volunteers for Germany? Because:
"For many Poles Russians at that time were seen as "ours" due to process of liberalisation and wave of pan-Slavism that occurred in Russian Empire after the 1905 Revolution and in contrast to Germany which through its actions as relentless Germanization of Poles within its borders, Września schoolstrike, persecution of Polish education in Pomerania na Poznań and in 1914 the Destruction of Kalisz damaged their image, in favour of Russians. This attiude confused and was a problem for Austrian-orientated Piłsudski. Only in late summer of 1915 after harsh policy of plunder by Russian Empire towards Polish lands the symphathy of Poles towards Russians in the conflict waned."

Now I'll grant, after the 1905 Revolution, things got better for minorities within the Russian. Enforcement of Russification policies waned, though did not disappear. This made many happy. Though any motions towards independence or the revitalization of culture were swiftly countered by the Imperial government.

Extrasolar Angel, I'm actually shocked that you made me react this way. As I Blame Communism can attest, I'm often far more cool, collected, and less hostile when I'm arguing with someone.

But you have been consistant in refusing to define key terms in the argument, putting words and insinuations in my mouth to attack my character, and seem to have no sense of historical context whatsoever. I really wish somebody would have backed me up on all of this instead of just observing with what I can only imagine was wry amusement, because my fingers are aching like hell.

 

[Zioneer]

Um, wow, I didn't expect such a can of worms to be opened by my thread. There's no need to get pissed off at each other, Extrasolar Angel and wolfpaw.

I got my question answered suitably, by both of you, AND by others.

I would like it if you two stopped arguing over a point that will only be a real issue in my TL. (of course, that's only if I make this into a possible POD for a real TL, but that's beside the point)

Not trying to moderate here, but wow. Seriously.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Wolfpaw's scenario was kind of cool.

How did the Battle of Orel go? Perhaps we can figure out a more exact POV from there.

 

[Wolfpaw]

Wolfpaw's scenario was kind of cool.

How did the Battle of Orel go? Perhaps we can figure out a more exact POV from there.

This is a quote from The Russian Civil War by Evan Mawdsley:

"White veterans later maintained that it was the removal of half a dozen regiments from an already overstretched Volunteer Army that allowed the Reds to turn its open flanks at Orel and begin the counterattack."

So basically, we have Denikin not remove those divisions. The Volunteer Army's offensive is not rolled back and Moscow falls to the Whites, beheading the Bolshevik war effort.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Do you know why were those regiments removed and what was done with them?

 

[Wolfpaw]

Unfortunately, no. The page with that information was omitted from the Google books sample. Some luck, eh?

 

[WatsonLadd]

Keep in mind I know little of the politics of those years. In fact, I know relatively little about Russian politics at all, I just thought this was an interesting idea.



I suppose the monarchists would be the rulers, but of course, they'd need to make concessions to the pro-democratic and especially liberal factions. Perhaps, as wolfpaw notes, a possible resurrection of the Duma, with Cyril ruling after Nicholas III dies?



1. So then decrease the power of the restored monarchy, and increase the power of the Duma, and the factions that defeated the communists. Perhaps a blanket ban of all communist and socialist groups, to begin with?

2. Meh, I just don't like the pogroms, honestly. Such a waste. Kind of odd that, in RL, neither the Soviets or the White Army used Jewish forces, when they had a good-sized population of them that were reasonably useful for that purpose, and who would unconditionally support the faction that didn't throw them out of the country.

The Reds accepted Jews at this time, and for many Jews facing discrimination the prospect of equality made them commit to the Communist cause.