WI: Whermacht captures Moscow?

This. I note that going the other way, with a much greater imbalance of forces, it took the Russians 9 months (July 44 to April 45) to get from the same starting point to Berlin, which is a shorter distance.

Regards

R

That statistic is complicated by the Soviet strategy including from the first nabbing as much of the Balkans as they could possibly get for their postwar Empire, at the expense of the initial war with the Germans. *If* the Soviets had wanted Berlin in 1944, there was some reason to think that they could have bulldozed through the Home Army and the Nazis both if they had to, and taken Berlin before the Allies got past the Siegfried Line. The Soviets were playing for much higher stakes than Warsaw and Berlin at that point, however.
 
Not to rain on everyone's parade but the Wehrmacht was stopped by "General Winter". I saw a documentary on Stalin in was claimed that Stalin was very close of fleeing Moscow and setting up shop in Nowosibirsk.

If the Wehrmacht could hold Moscow is indeed another story....
 
Not to rain on everyone's parade but the Wehrmacht was stopped by "General Winter". I saw a documentary on Stalin in was claimed that Stalin was very close of fleeing Moscow and setting up shop in Nowosibirsk.

If the Wehrmacht could hold Moscow is indeed another story....

The Germans were stopped by "general no more fuel and ammo and forces exhausted from 5 months of around the clock campaigning and advancing more than 600 miles from their jump off points and inability to supply that far forward"
 
Not to rain on everyone's parade but the Wehrmacht was stopped by "General Winter". I saw a documentary on Stalin in was claimed that Stalin was very close of fleeing Moscow and setting up shop in Nowosibirsk.

If the Wehrmacht could hold Moscow is indeed another story....

No, it was stopped by the Soviet Army. General Winter did as much damage to the Soviets as he did to the Germans. This argument is special pleading given that the Germans were perfectly capable of stopping the idiotic winter 1941-2 General Offensive, but not able to stop the local offensive in front of Moscow.
 
This. I note that going the other way, with a much greater imbalance of forces, it took the Russians 9 months (July 44 to April 45) to get from the same starting point to Berlin, which is a shorter distance.

But for the Soviets to clear the Germans from Belarus in 1944 took only one month (June 22nd-late July), where for the Germans in 1941 it had taken almost two (June 22nd-mid august).
 
But for the Soviets to clear the Germans from Belarus in 1944 took only one month (June 22nd-late July), where for the Germans in 1941 it had taken almost two (June 22nd-mid august).

Not to mention the huge gap between the Nazis clearing the Crimea in 1941-2 and the Soviets doing so in 1944. The really complicating aspect of this is that post-Bagration the USSR was aiming for the Balkans, not the Germans. It knew the Germans were more or less dead strategically by that point, what it was seeking was the basis of the Eastern Bloc.
 
I am sure there are east front experts who could find many problems with this. But I thought I would give it a try for fun:

1) General Wever lives, Germans keep Ju88 a fast rangey level bomber, increased levels of pilot training, better organization and lower levels of losses in Battle of Britain make a Luftwaffe with a larger level bomber force that can reach further without having to rebase.
2) With the extra air power Guderian closes the ring sooner and keeps them closed in Smolensk and Byransk encirclements.
3) German abort Leningrad offensive earlier and avoid getting drawn to Kursk and Kalinin, focus on getting around Moscow
4) Germans manage to get weak mobile forces across the roads and railways leading to Moscow (i.e. on the east side of Moscow).
5) Russian command and control is chaotic and weak, Zhukov has a hard time getting around to everyone. Instead of overwhelming the Germans holding the ring, most Russian forces, a lot of which are militia, just exfiltrate the weak ring and get out, joining the good Siberian forces already on the outside.
6) Germans more closely ring the city still held by police, remaining militia, but their is little Soviet command and control, Germans mange to break in at a number of places and grab some key land marks and manage finally to capture some supplies intact, especially at Vnukovo airport and such military bases.
7) Soviets still hold most of the city, its just too big to really take, population just starves, a trickle tries to escape, Germans are content with this status, trying to secure just the main communication routes through the city, not messing with the rest.
8) Soviet counteroffensive is delayed by the loss of the use of the Moscow communication center, still lots of railways leading to battle front, but lateral movement difficult. Counter offensive starts December 27th.
9) Germans use extra the time to try push railroads further east and repair airfields around Moscow and get their mobile units a little further back since their kind of useless in the extreme cold. Deserately cold Germans start looting Moscow residents of Winter clothing. No purges of Bock, Guderian etc occur yet.
10) Soviet counter offensive bigger than OTL with the extra time to prepare, and a more concentrated effort.... Bock, Guderian and others issue retreat orders, Hitlers outraged, sacks them January 2nd.
11) Germans start flying in supplies to Vnukovo airport just west of Moscow which becomes a fortress with a big enough ring to allow Stalingrad style airlift which works in the Winter of 41 -42 (General Wever helps organize). Kluge is in charge inside the ring. Model is also in the ring and becomes a fireman of sorts.
12) Germans try to keep somewhat clear and repaired the Moscow - Minsk paved highway as a retreat and supply road, fortresses are established in the cities along the road, Luftwaffe tries to fly top cover over the road as best as it can.
13) Soviets do better than OTL initally, but later have supply issues due to loss of Moscow and lack of good intact communication routes but do take major chunks of territory back.
13) Germans in early April 1942 open a thin supply line with a thin long salient all the way to the Vnukovo airport to the west of Moscow, but Moscow is liberated by the Soviets (and in the city is in shambles).
 
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In July 1944 a OTL like Operation Bagration occurs, Soviets try to stage a parade of prisoners as in OTL. This gets really ugly as the sullen and angry population of Moscow starts throwing rocks at the parade of Germans from the ruins of buildings still not cleaned up, the Germans try to flee from the rock throwers, the Soviets guards start shooting, the Germans try to overpower the guards and a gigantic lynching of 60000 Germans occurs in front of all the international diplomatic staff (just moved back into the city). You can still see the videos today on YouTube.

News of this makes it back to Germany, A fearful population and military overthrows the Nazi regime with offers to surrender to the western allies if guarantees of safety can be given to the German population from the Soviets. Western allies agree with the understanding there will be a Soviet occupation zone and the Soviets will want reparations and lots of them, Soviets agree to respect the life of the German population and move in military police only into the big cities as long as there is no resistance.
 
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I'm not sure if anyone remembers the phrase, "The loss of Moscow does not mean the loss of Russia. As long as we preserve our army, we only prepare the enemy for his doom." Even if the Germans captured Moscow, where could they set up their headquarters? The original wartime capital of the USSR was going to be Samara, not Novosibirsk.​
 
I've read that if Hitler hadn't believed that he was a brilliant military strategist that Moscow could've been taken. I read or heard somewhere that Hitler wanted to push down to Kiev and take that first rather than using a true blitzkrieg towards Moscow. This exhausted men and resources that could've been thrown at the real goal. Yes Moscow could've been taken by the Wehrmacht, but how in the world does the Wehrmacht hold it? TAKING the city is one thing. They'd pretty much have to level the place a la Stalingrad once the Red Army pushes back against it. The previous comment was correct, it will be similar to Stalingrad.



what if they somehow captured moscow, but then rather than trying to hold it, just literally leveled the place. every building not needed for the german military is demolished. the civilian population that isn't immediatly turned into unfed slave laborers are just left out in the cold and rubble or executed. by literally destroying the city and the people who lived there, it kind of removes the problem of resistance somewhat. then again all of that rubble might make a bunch of good hiding places too. once the russians retake the city, or rather the area formerly known as moscow, and eventually make their way to berlin, the payback's gonna be a bitch...


dunno, just a thought.
 
How were you planning on destroying a major city? Bulldozing it? No matter, the amount of munitions needed to reduce a city the size of Moscow would run whichever army was trying it virtually (if not totally) dry, and thus the counter-attack would see them all dead or captured.
 
what if they somehow captured moscow, but then rather than trying to hold it, just literally leveled the place. every building not needed for the german military is demolished. the civilian population that isn't immediatly turned into unfed slave laborers are just left out in the cold and rubble or executed. by literally destroying the city and the people who lived there, it kind of removes the problem of resistance somewhat. then again all of that rubble might make a bunch of good hiding places too. once the russians retake the city, or rather the area formerly known as moscow, and eventually make their way to berlin, the payback's gonna be a bitch...


dunno, just a thought.

You mean the way the OTL strategic goals for Moscow and Leningrad specified? A European Rape of Nanking means the only place German will be spoken is in Hell.
 
what if they somehow captured moscow, but then rather than trying to hold it, just literally leveled the place. every building not needed for the german military is demolished. the civilian population that isn't immediatly turned into unfed slave laborers are just left out in the cold and rubble or executed. by literally destroying the city and the people who lived there, it kind of removes the problem of resistance somewhat. then again all of that rubble might make a bunch of good hiding places too. once the russians retake the city, or rather the area formerly known as moscow, and eventually make their way to berlin, the payback's gonna be a bitch...


dunno, just a thought.

So a "Rape of Moscow" kind of scenario but with more building destruction? That's one I hadn't thought about. I'm kind of surprised the Red Army didn't do just that when they entered Berlin. Just kill EVERYTHING. The reason the Red Army didn't do this is the same reason the Wehrmacht wouldn't have: VALUE. Preserve what you conquered, at least in name only, to boost yourself as much as possible. The only thing I can think of that would prohibit the destruction of Moscow is Hitler's desire for war trophies for the Reich. Swastika banners hanging from the walls of the Kremlin would definitely make a statement, more so than 105s or Stuka bombs taking out said walls.
 
So a "Rape of Moscow" kind of scenario but with more building destruction? That's one I hadn't thought about. I'm kind of surprised the Red Army didn't do just that when they entered Berlin. Just kill EVERYTHING. The reason the Red Army didn't do this is the same reason the Wehrmacht wouldn't have: VALUE. Preserve what you conquered, at least in name only, to boost yourself as much as possible. The only thing I can think of that would prohibit the destruction of Moscow is Hitler's desire for war trophies for the Reich. Swastika banners hanging from the walls of the Kremlin would definitely make a statement, more so than 105s or Stuka bombs taking out said walls.

The Red Army didn't do that because they were Marxists. Their view was to loot things and focus on economics, not kill everything because death solves all problems, no men, no problems. Germany was a major obsession of Soviet foreign policy, to boot, so the odds of the USSR succeeding in gaining even half of Germany and proceeding to annihilate everything in it were never very great.
 
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