WI: What if Ismail al-Jazari invented the steam engine?

[HotSauce]

There are several historical figures that were not too far off inventing the steam engine however, al-Jazari was undoubtedly the closest, in the early 13th century...

A proto-industrial revolution with only al-Jazari's inventions is a possibility, he invented an early crankshaft in 1206 [1], he invented 5 machines to raise water alone (including the first suction pipes, suction pumps and most importantly, the twin-cylinder reciprocating piston suction pump [2]) and invented automated gates and doors (plus made loads of clocks and loads of other things).

So, my question is, what if Al-Jazari also incorporated his crankshaft and his extensive work on hydropower (albeit with steam) into inventing a prototype steam engine by 1210?

[1] A device that converts continuous rotary motion to reciprocating linear motion and is central to modern steam engines and combustion engines
[2] This pump is remarkable for four reasons:

• The first known use of a true suction pipe (which sucks fluids into a partial vacuum) in a pump.
• The first application of the double-acting principle.
• The conversion of rotary to reciprocating motion via the crank-connecting rod mechanism.
• It was able to raise water 13.6 metres with help of delivery pipes

 

[Nivek]

There are several historical figures that were not too far off inventing the steam engine however, al-Jazari was undoubtedly the closest, in the early 13th century...

A proto-industrial revolution with only al-Jazari's inventions is a possibility, he invented an early crankshaft in 1206 [1], he invented 5 machines to raise water alone (including the first suction pipes, suction pumps and most importantly, the twin-cylinder reciprocating piston suction pump [2]) and invented automated gates and doors (plus made loads of clocks and loads of other things).

So, my question is, what if Al-Jazari also incorporated his crankshaft and his extensive work on hydropower (albeit with steam) into inventing a prototype steam engine by 1210?

[1] A device that converts continuous rotary motion to reciprocating linear motion and is central to modern steam engines and combustion engines
[2] This pump is remarkable for four reasons:

• The first known use of a true suction pipe (which sucks fluids into a partial vacuum) in a pump.
• The first application of the double-acting principle.
• The conversion of rotary to reciprocating motion via the crank-connecting rod mechanism.
• It was able to raise water 13.6 metres with help of delivery pipes

Let's say is finished and found patronage among the Osmali...the main advantage would be for irrigation and minning...besides that... a richer anatolia peninsual for the Osmali/Ottomans?

 

[HotSauce]

Let's say is finished and found patronage among the Osmali...the main advantage would be for irrigation and minning...besides that... a richer anatolia peninsual for the Osmali/Ottomans?

Would you not think that it would lead the way for more technological advancements as it did during the Industrial Revolution? Especially once coal mining really kicks off, then the Middle East would be the financial and industrial centre of the world, with Europe trying to catch up (technology takes time to diffuse and catch on). Maybe I'm being unrealistic but it should at least put us a few centuries ahead in technology.

 

[Nivek]

Would you not think that it would lead the way for more technological advancements as it did during the Industrial Revolution? Especially once coal mining really kicks off, then the Middle East would be the financial and industrial centre of the world, with Europe trying to catch up (technology takes time to diffuse and catch on). Maybe I'm being unrealistic but it should at least put us a few centuries ahead in technology.

Of Course it will, in general term i'm asking more info ottomans(i know more andalus), here as the Anatolian mountains have coal and iron ore..that make it perfect to the steam machine, plus more minning means more soldiers...that is a massive advantage for the ottomans in the future.

In general the tech progress depend how will be directed, al--Jazari will be asked to improve and work his ideas, in general we could see a lot of mechanical tinkering in the province, the application will come later as population start to growth to created a market, as you say the revolution will come, but unlike england/britain already have a massive empire, here the ottomans are just starting theirs...so will take time.

 

[HotSauce]

Of Course it will, in general term i'm asking more info ottomans(i know more andalus), here as the Anatolian mountains have coal and iron ore..that make it perfect to the steam machine, plus more minning means more soldiers...that is a massive advantage for the ottomans in the future.

In general the tech progress depend how will be directed, al--Jazari will be asked to improve and work his ideas, in general we could see a lot of mechanical tinkering in the province, the application will come later as population start to growth to created a market, as you say the revolution will come, but unlike england/britain already have a massive empire, here the ottomans are just starting theirs...so will take time.

Fair enough, it will take longer as the Ottomans do not have as many resources as Britain. However, we might see the Middle East become the 'First World' in this TL with Islam having a greater influence across the globe than OTL. Not to say that Europe will be backwards, but will just industrialise a bit sooner, but by a century or two, they'll end up industrialising before even seeing the New World.

That in itself is a terrifying prospect for the natives - imagine these modern armies march off ships with magic weapons that kill from long range and never-ending amounts of weapons and ammunition. Surely an affront to the gods themselves, in their eyes. Hopefully, industrialisation goes hand in hand with less human brutality, otherwise, we might see genocides and conquests beyond the comprehension of European colonisers in OTL...

 

[Nivek]

Fair enough, it will take longer as the Ottomans do not have as many resources as Britain. However, we might see the Middle East become the 'First World' in this TL with Islam having a greater influence across the globe than OTL. Not to say that Europe will be backwards, but will just industrialise a bit sooner, but by a century or two, they'll end up industrialising before even seeing the New World.

That in itself is a terrifying prospect for the natives - imagine these modern armies march off ships with magic weapons that kill from long range and never-ending amounts of weapons and ammunition. Surely an affront to the gods themselves, in their eyes. Hopefully, industrialisation goes hand in hand with less human brutality, otherwise, we might see genocides and conquests beyond the comprehension of European colonisers in OTL...

Yeah the dynamics in Europe(i consider anatolia and levant european) will be massively different, specially when news of the more advance muslim civilization conquered the greeks and is expanding. Knowledge will leak but will take time and that is vital. So yeah, we going to see a more powerful and sucessful ottoman empire, that alone change everything.

The second point, the butterflies change everything, when people knew something is out there, more sucessful ottomans changing the silk route...maybe a push for the americas early? or something different? Maybe when the ottoman get egypt the make a earlier suez channel that change the trade dynamics? would that delay or push the new world/americas exploration?

 

[HotSauce]

Yeah the dynamics in Europe(i consider anatolia and levant european) will be massively different, specially when news of the more advance muslim civilization conquered the greeks and is expanding. Knowledge will leak but will take time and that is vital. So yeah, we going to see a more powerful and sucessful ottoman empire, that alone change everything.

The second point, the butterflies change everything, when people knew something is out there, more sucessful ottomans changing the silk route...maybe a push for the americas early? or something different? Maybe when the ottoman get egypt the make a earlier suez channel that change the trade dynamics? would that delay or push the new world/americas exploration?

An earlier suez canal would definitely delay new world exploration for a bit, as trade can be done with the East without nearly circumnavigating Africa or going West (despite common belief, most people believed the world was round in the Middle Ages). Columbus greatly underestimated the size of the Earth so he went west, discovering the New World (well the Vikings did that 5 centuries ago but no one remembered). Although, with more advanced industrial tech, the size of the Earth would be more accurately deduced, so exploration would be boosted and with steamships, the Atlantic is only a 3-week crossing. So exploration is delayed very slightly (but still much earlier than OTL), but it probably will occur before the canal is even built.

If the UK colonises North America similarly to OTL, the US probably would never become independent. The travel time is simply too quick for major differences in culture to occur (for example back when the US became independent, it took 3 months to cross the Atlantic - so representing American citizens in Parliament in London was never going to happen), and English settlers would probably have a say in British politics, so the revolution might not happen. In the case of Spain, the revolution in the Americas was due to other factors such as an oppressive class system, financial ruin and an increasing 'mulatto' group that sought independence. In that case, eventually, they would have revolted.

However, this all might not even be applicable considering that the Ottomans would probably end up colonising huge swathes of Africa and Oceania due to their position, as well as geopolitics being hugely affected and the butterflies become more powerful than we can imagine. Maybe a largely Islamic Europe/Russia, which would probably mean a mostly Islamic New World... dang, at this stage, the butterflies block out the sun.

 

[Nivek]

at this stage, the butterflies block out the sun.

Just the Steam Engine alone change everything, the world as we knew it would be something far away our imagination and that rely on the butterflies alone.

 

[King_Arthur]

Um, does anyone here realise that al-Jazari lived in the Artiqid State and that he lived 150 years before Osman. Before he can even think about heading west, the Artiqids would need to deal with the Seljuks, the Ayyubids and various Anatolian and ME petty states. Steam engines don't create limitless manpower, so it is a fight they would likely lose.

 

[HotSauce]

Um, does anyone here realise that al-Jazari lived in the Artiqid State and that he lived 150 years before Osman. Before he can even think about heading west, the Artiqids would need to deal with the Seljuks, the Ayyubids and various Anatolian and ME petty states. Steam engines don't create limitless manpower, so it is a fight they would likely lose.

I don't mind who picks it up, the idea itself needs to survive and spread. Gunpowder took a few centuries to reach Europe from China... So it would probably get to the Ottomans by the time of Osman.

Anyway, the Ottomans could just see the huge potential of this new invention and bring a royal escort to bring him to Kostantiniyye and make more inventions. Unlikely but possible.

 

[King_Arthur]

I don't mind who picks it up, the idea itself needs to survive and spread. Gunpowder took a few centuries to reach Europe from China... So it would probably get to the Ottomans by the time of Osman.

Anyway, the Ottomans could just see the huge potential of this new invention and bring a royal escort to bring him to Kostantiniyye and make more inventions. Unlikely but possible.

It would take a few centuries to develop, but butterflies would change everything. Osman wouldn't be born, there may be no Fourth Crusade, meaning a strong Byzies, and there could be no Mongol conquests which means a continued Islamic Golden Age.

 

[HotSauce]

It would take a few centuries to develop, but butterflies would change everything. Osman wouldn't be born, there may be no Fourth Crusade, meaning a strong Byzies, and there could be no Mongol conquests which means a continued Islamic Golden Age.

It doesn't have to be Osman per se, it just has to be an influential and wealthy person who could be a patron. Anyway, if Osman was not born, that does not mean that no one else would take his place. Most likely there would be another Ottoman Sultan instead.

 

[Falecius]

Some notes:
1) the Fourth Crusade has probably already happened by the time of the proposed POD.
2) it will take time for a primitive steam engine to lead to an Industrial Revolution and...
3) the Mongols are coming.

Now, the Artuqids weathered that storm somehow. Their territory I think includes some coal deposits (and has, of course, considerable hydropower potential, though I'd hope hope their capital at Hisn Kayfa/Hasankeyf will not be flooded ITTL) but I am unsure of the Mardin branch specifically.
However, part of the problem is the relative lack of manpower and resources the Artuqid states all suffered relative to more powerful neighbouring states, which would make them unable to fully exploit the potential of al-Jazari's work (this appears to have been the case IOTL as well). I guess that, in this timeframe, the most potentially interested rulers who have the means to support further developments are: 1) the Ayyubids, specifically al-Malik al-Kamil (they were also on good terms with the Artuqids) 2) the Abbasids. Caliph al-Mustansir (r. 1226-1242) was presiding over a tentative partial resurgence of Caliphal power in Iraq. Of course, with the Mongols coming, Iraq is hardly going to be a promising cradle of industrial civilization in this period. 3) fun idea, but... the Hohenstaufens. Emperor Frederick, King of Sicily, knew Arabic and famously corresponded with the Ayyubid court on scientific and technical matters IOTL. He may want to import some Eastern technical innovations into Sicily.

 

[Lampiao]

No invention is ever useful if people don't know how to use it economically and if there's not enough venture capital to be invested. Solar cells, for instance, were invented in the 1830's. In real life, an invention isn't some kind of unlocked achievement from a Grand Strategy Game.

 

[HotSauce]

No invention is ever useful if people don't know how to use it economically and if there's not enough venture capital to be invested. Solar cells, for instance, were invented in the 1830's. In real life, an invention isn't some kind of unlocked achievement from a Grand Strategy Game.

That's why I didn't say that an industrial revolution would start immediately by 1210, but will likely occur by the 1500s - 1700s, a couple of centuries earlier than in OTL, especially if the use of coal is widespread and very high demand for a certain good is present

 

[Lampiao]

That's why I didn't say that an industrial revolution would start immediately by 1210, but will likely occur by the 1500s - 1700s, a couple of centuries earlier than in OTL, especially if the use of coal is widespread and very high demand for a certain good is present

Why tho? Where are the economic factors? Where's the accumulation of capital? Some scientific toy doesn't determine the flow of capital. Remember that Romans created concrete, which would be again widely used in construction only in the 1900's.

 

[AltoRegnant]

If the UK colonises North America similarly to OTL, the US probably would never become independent. The travel time is simply too quick for major differences in culture to occur (for example back when the US became independent, it took 3 months to cross the Atlantic - so representing American citizens in Parliament in London was never going to happen), and English settlers would probably have a say in British politics, so the revolution might not happen. In the case of Spain, the revolution in the Americas was due to other factors such as an oppressive class system, financial ruin and an increasing 'mulatto' group that sought independence. In that case, eventually, they would have revolted.

However, this all might not even be applicable considering that the Ottomans would probably end up colonising huge swathes of Africa and Oceania due to their position, as well as geopolitics being hugely affected and the butterflies become more powerful than we can imagine. Maybe a largely Islamic Europe/Russia, which would probably mean a mostly Islamic New World... dang, at this stage, the butterflies block out the sun.

While I won't say islamic exploration is impossible, the fact is that it's not necessary-they can reach china and india no sweat, when europe needs to go through or around them, and in this period they'd literally rather have to deal with primitive pagans than to enrich the muslim empire.

Also I'm willing to bet that every scrap of land is more fiercely fought over in the americas pending how much of their resources the europeans discover, so "like otl," probably wouldn't even begin to cover the ferocity of Britain, france, and spain ttl.
That reminds me, I'm pretty sure that France or Spain have more coal than Britain at this point, and as the technology spreads, it getting to them first makes sense. Add in their then higher populations, and... yeah, pretty good to be not Britain

 

[King_Arthur]

While I won't say islamic exploration is impossible, the fact is that it's not necessary-they can reach china and india no sweat, when europe needs to go through or around them, and in this period they'd literally rather have to deal with primitive pagans than to enrich the muslim empire.

Also I'm willing to bet that every scrap of land is more fiercely fought over in the americas pending how much of their resources the europeans discover, so "like otl," probably wouldn't even begin to cover the ferocity of Britain, france, and spain ttl.
That reminds me, I'm pretty sure that France or Spain have more coal than Britain at this point, and as the technology spreads, it getting to them first makes sense. Add in their then higher populations, and... yeah, pretty good to be not Britain

This will probably butterfly away the Catholic Monarchs, and, more importantly, Carlos I. This means that Spain don't have the Netherlands, where most of their coal reserves in this period OTL were. After all, Belgium was the second country to industrialise. Castille has some reserves in Asturias and Pais Vasco, while Aragon has some in Catalonia, but nothing comparable to the South Wales or Yorkshire Coalfields. The countries with the largest coal reserves are probably going to be England, Burgundy and Bohemia.

 

[Nivek]

That's why I didn't say that an industrial revolution would start immediately by 1210, but will likely occur by the 1500s - 1700s, a couple of centuries earlier than in OTL, especially if the use of coal is widespread and very high demand for a certain good is present

Why tho? Where are the economic factors? Where's the accumulation of capital? Some scientific toy doesn't determine the flow of capital. Remember that Romans created concrete, which would be again widely used in construction only in the 1900's.

Capital right now is people and pure gold, so far that is why british did industrialized, that is why the steam machines are useful for irrigation and minning means more people into armies and to work as artisan, that is how you start a capitalist society...of course will be limited some future wars but they could weather a lot of things

 

[aaronupright]

What made commercial steam engines feasible was the improvements in metallurgy which needs the several centuries of experience making cannon and muskets, stuff which can withstand repeated high pressure .

That was in the future during Al-Jazaris time. The fact that trapped steam under high pressure can be made go do work was a well known phenomena. For over two millennia. Making apparatus so it would do useful jobs was a challenge, not solved until the 18th century.