WI : Western Power destroyed Mecca and/or Medina

BlondieBC

Banned
I guess something in World War 1 is notionally possible, but neither the Turks nor the allies would want to do so. Perhaps if it essentially became a critical stronghold for one side or the other and become "ground zero" of a battlefield. Even then, since neither side would likely be actively trying to destroy Mecca-proper the destruction wouldn't be total and someone would rebuild.

I had it happen in my WW1 TL. All you really need is for Gallipoli not to happen and for the Ottomans to be linked to Central Europe. After these two events happen, it becomes natural to try to interdict British shipping via air or U-boat or small surface boat. And then for the British to react.

Basically, once you have a rail from central Germany to Mecca, the temptation to send the smaller rail shippable U-boats or Airplanes becomes HUGE.
 
Actually the Italians had a good navy in WWII and their battleships and battlecruisers were a serious threat in the Meditteranean until the Royal Navy crippled it in their raid on the Taranto naval base in late 1940. After Mussolini's ignominious death in 1943 and Italy's surrendering and changing sides the Luftwaffe was sent to sink these ships (They to sink one with an ASM) because of the threat they posed against the Kreigsmarine.

Quite true, but why people should make the effort to think (and read some history) rather than rely on some tired and flogged-to-death meme or maybe remember some ethnic bigotry learnt at their grandfathers' knees ?
 

jahenders

Banned
It wouldn't be pre-1900, but I could imagine a scenario where some (western) terrorist group decides to nuke Mecca in retaliation for all of the Islamic terrorism. It might not be Israel, per se, but perhaps the Israelis "misplace" a nuke and a drone capable of carrying it...

For a second, I though you meant an Israeli flag over Mecca, and imagined some massive-Israel wank that involves several American wars in the Middle East and a giant Jihad, et cetera.

Bonus points if it's a resurgent Zoroastrian Persian Empire after the Muslim conquest flying a flag over the Hejaz.
 

Redbeard

Banned
The Ottomans with varying intensity tried to play the "Islam-Card" when fighting western powers - just didn't have much success.

I guess it would not be impossible to construct a timeline where Muslims remain a main opponent of Europe and where religion have prominent role in the conflict.

Like if the Russians actually succeed somewhen in "liberating" Constaninople, start feeling like the Roman Empire (expanding in ME), and then, after a century of bitter conflict and increasing religious fanatism decide to do a "Jerusalem" on Mecca as the propper Roman Empire they are...
 
How can you unintentionally invade the Ottoman Empire and destroy one of its most important cities? Either way, I'm having a hard time coming up with a scenario where this happens. The Hejaz isn't exactly top on the list of Ottoman territory for Europeans to attack in a potential war. Egypt, the Balkans, and Istanbul all make way more sense.
Didnt the British burned down some important palace in China? 19century or something?

So in a case of a war, its not that impossible.
 
Didnt the British burned down some important palace in China? 19century or something?

So in a case of a war, its not that impossible.

The Summer Palace during the 2nd Opium War, yeah. That was after the Chinese broke a flag of truce and captured a bunch of envoys and tortured them, with the British burning the palace to 'discourage' such practices.

Anyways, the Summer Palace and the cities of Mecca and Medina are a little different in scope, and the British aren't dumb enough to actually torch the places while they have significant Muslim populations in India under their rule. If they got pissed because of rumours of pig fat in cartridges, I don't think their reaction to the torching of the most sacred place in their religion and the denying of the Hajj to them would be all that pleasant.
 
The Summer Palace during the 2nd Opium War, yeah. That was after the Chinese broke a flag of truce and captured a bunch of envoys and tortured them, with the British burning the palace to 'discourage' such practices.

Anyways, the Summer Palace and the cities of Mecca and Medina are a little different in scope, and the British aren't dumb enough to actually torch the places while they have significant Muslim populations in India under their rule. If they got pissed because of rumours of pig fat in cartridges, I don't think their reaction to the torching of the most sacred place in their religion and the denying of the Hajj to them would be all that pleasant.
Thanks for the insight.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Actually the Italians had a good navy in WWII and their battleships and battlecruisers were a serious threat in the Meditteranean until the Royal Navy crippled it in their raid on the Taranto naval base in late 1940. After Mussolini's ignominious death in 1943 and Italy's surrendering and changing sides the Luftwaffe was sent to sink these ships (They to sink one with an ASM) because of the threat they posed against the Kreigsmarine.

True. The Italian army - and government - however, did not handle WW2 well. (There were, after all, three cases of their declaring war and advancing into a nation which promptly repulsed their first push - and in two cases the nation in question then came close to counter-capturing their entire starting area.)
The "Italian incompetence" meme is overplayed for comic effect, but it does have some basis.
This isn't to denigrate Italian performance, either, it's just that they jumped into their wars without nearly enough planning - and that can be laid squarely at the feet of Benny the Moose - and unprepared forces don't tend to do well.
 
So, around the 1880's, there was a massive Muslim insurrection just on the other side of the Red Sea with the Mahdi revolt. Say they get a bit more successful one way or the other, and establish Mecca as a new power base, threatening the Suez Canal, Somaliland, Aden and Djibouti.

Keep in mind they don't need to rule over the city, same as Boko Haram doesn't rule every city they're in, and also that they don't need to be strong enough to actually invade/destroy Somaliland/Suez Canal/Djibouti: with a more organised piracy you can deal a lot of damage, severing the links between Europe and the far East (Tonkin Campaign in full swing, subjugation of China is still on the way, India...).

The Europeans don't take too kindly to this, see it as a lesson against the weak man of Europe (the Ottomans) who won't do anything to solve the problem (I mean, ain't those guys supposed to rule over all muslims, they gotta do something! Ah well, a good way to grab some more land) and invade Mecca.
Again, for the symbolic impact, they don't need to erase it from the map. Destroy a couple big Mosques, take the Kaaba and you're done
 
The POD should be post 1815 and preferably pre World War 2 , I don´t want to be offensive against any religion and person with this thread.

It is hard to see the European powers doing this in the 1815-1945 timeline.

Mecca and Medina have no strategic value. There is not the level of religious strife between Christianity and Islam as there was before the Enlightenment and the decline of Ottoman power. Destroying Mecca or Medina would create lots of strife for no conceivable benefit.

If it did happen, the Muslims would just rebuild Mecca at the earliest convenience, and the incident would would be added to the list of animosities between the religions.

The only time I can see the West doing such a thing is far earlier - either in a wanked out crusader state or an early Byzantine defeat of Islam. With Christian power in the region being high, I could see some kind of reprisal/punitive invasion against Islam's sanctuaries. I don't see any permanent occupation of the Hedjaz however unless there are large force of Christian Arabs willing to retake the region and live there.

If that happened, then Islam would need to adapt to the lost of its prime holy spot in the same way the Jews had to figure out what the lost of the Holy Temple meant.
 
It is hard to see the European powers doing this in the 1815-1945 timeline.

Mecca and Medina have no strategic value. There is not the level of religious strife between Christianity and Islam as there was before the Enlightenment and the decline of Ottoman power. Destroying Mecca or Medina would create lots of strife for no conceivable benefit.

If it did happen, the Muslims would just rebuild Mecca at the earliest convenience, and the incident would would be added to the list of animosities between the religions.

The only time I can see the West doing such a thing is far earlier - either in a wanked out crusader state or an early Byzantine defeat of Islam. With Christian power in the region being high, I could see some kind of reprisal/punitive invasion against Islam's sanctuaries. I don't see any permanent occupation of the Hedjaz however unless there are large force of Christian Arabs willing to retake the region and live there.

If that happened, then Islam would need to adapt to the lost of its prime holy spot in the same way the Jews had to figure out what the lost of the Holy Temple meant.
So at the end:
1 It doesn´t matter in the long time.
2 It makes no sense.
3 It creates more damage than "benefits" for the Europeans.
Anyway thank you all for the answers.
 

Lateknight

Banned
If the crusaders ever got these cities they would probably burn but I don't really know enough about that period in history to suggest a POD
 
WI the Kabba was threatened by foreign invaders and the Ottomans tried to withdraw the holy meteorite to Istanbul for safe-keeping?
WI the holy meteorite was lost at sea?
How much does the holy meteorite weigh?
 

Lateknight

Banned
WI the Kabba was threatened by foreign invaders and the Ottomans tried to withdraw the holy meteorite to Istanbul for safe-keeping?
WI the holy meteorite was lost at sea?
How much does the holy meteorite weigh?

I must not be that much it's been moved before a few times.
 
The best chance you have for this is some far right Jewish nationalist sect doing this. If Israel loses one of the many wars it has faced against the Arabs, some Muslim nutter does something nasty to one of the Jewish holy sites in Jerusalem, and the Jews are expelled from the Levant, you could have a very radicalised Zionist movement. It's not ASB for them to get their hands on a dirty bomb and get revenge by planting it in Mecca.
 
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