Morty Vicar
Banned
Plausibility check/WI: instead of the OTL Reformation, Martin Luther instead starts a Western branch of the Orthodox Church. Ignoring the mothras, what difference would this make to Europe and 'the west' as we know it?
You might need an event similar to the Union of Brest that could have resulted in various Catholics and Protestants who are willing to subordinate themselves to the Patriarchate of Moscow, a reverse Uniate Church if you will.
This would not have a lot of appeal because the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy don't have any relevance to the issues dividing the Latin Church in Germany.
1) It does nothing to address the issue of corruption in the Church
2) It means nothing to the rising class of literate bourgeosie who want to read the Bible in their vernacular
3) It would involve accepting "heresies" the Latin West has decisively rejected but which Orthodoxy maintains
4) It would tie the incipient Protestant movement to a declining Church with little power or influence in the heartland of Europe
5) It would have limited appeal to German nationalism since instead of founding a native German church, he is simply imposing Greek religion instead of Roman religion
6) It would not justify local German princes confiscating existing monastic land for their own uses.
Honestly, the doctrines of Protestantism in the beginning were simply Martin Lutheran's own opinions about the Bible. However, other people read the Bible had their own opinions, which is why future Protestants relying on sola scriptura created entirely different churches. It is hard to see him ignoring his own opinions and instead seek guidance in a "heretical" Church doctrine (which is alsmost the same as the Catholic Church except for a few matters). Even if he did, for the reasons above I don't think he'd get the support he needed to be as successful as he was IOTL.
I don't think it is very plausible POD.
What are you trying to get at? Is it a different Protestant Reformation? Establishment of a Western Orthodox Church at some point? Keeping the Church hierarchy and doctrine as is, but removing papal supremacy? Or simply seeing if any of the spaghetti sticks to the wall? It would help to know how to direct future comments.
Except that appealing to a valid, existing Church might be perceived as 'better' than creating a schism.This would not have a lot of appeal because the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy don't have any relevance to the issues dividing the Latin Church in Germany.
Not directly. But Luther's main problems were with indulgences and money siphoned off to Rome. As a Western Orthodox Church, there would be no indulgences, and very little money would flow to Constantinople.1) It does nothing to address the issue of corruption in the Church
Wrong. Orthodox churches have always used 'vernacular' - although 'Old Church Slavonic' isn't very vernacular by now. Constantinople would have no problem with liturgies in German, or a German Bible. Whether they'd be quite so happy about wide spread reading of a German Bible, I don't know, but they mightn't find out until they've agreed, and by then it'd be too late.2) It means nothing to the rising class of literate bourgeosie who want to read the Bible in their vernacular
That the Pope has undisputed power over the Church? That's one where Luther would agree with the Orthodox.3) It would involve accepting "heresies" the Latin West has decisively rejected but which Orthodoxy maintains
Heh! that's a feature, not a bug. Constantinople has no say over the German church at all, once they agree to it. Orthodox churches are national autocephalous churches (independent national churches that follow the same basic doctrine).4) It would tie the incipient Protestant movement to a declining Church with little power or influence in the heartland of Europe
Wrong, again. See the bit about National Autocephalous Churches.5) It would have limited appeal to German nationalism since instead of founding a native German church, he is simply imposing Greek religion instead of Roman religion
Well, yes, that IS a point.6) It would not justify local German princes confiscating existing monastic land for their own uses.
True.Honestly, the doctrines of Protestantism in the beginning were simply Martin Lutheran's own opinions about the Bible. However, other people read the Bible had their own opinions, which is why future Protestants relying on sola scriptura created entirely different churches. It is hard to see him ignoring his own opinions and instead seek guidance in a "heretical" Church doctrine (which is alsmost the same as the Catholic Church except for a few matters). Even if he did, for the reasons above I don't think he'd get the support he needed to be as successful as he was IOTL.
True. But not for most of the reasons you cited.I don't think it is very plausible POD.
What are you trying to get at? Is it a different Protestant Reformation? Establishment of a Western Orthodox Church at some point? Keeping the Church hierarchy and doctrine as is, but removing papal supremacy? Or simply seeing if any of the spaghetti sticks to the wall? It would help to know how to direct future comments.
Except that appealing to a valid, existing Church might be perceived as 'better' than creating a schism.
Wrong. Orthodox churches have always used 'vernacular' - although 'Old Church Slavonic' isn't very vernacular by now.
What other 'heresies' did you have in mind?
Wrong, again. See the bit about National Autocephalous Churches.
Dathi, I appreciate your contributions, but think they are more relevant in a 21st Cetury discussion of the issues rather than how they'd be discussed in Renaissance Germany at the time.
Would they really see the Orthodox Church as valid, or simply a degenerate Greek church? The Latin West did have a very favorable opinion of the Orthodox Church. This is true in Germany as it was elsewhere.
I think you are mistaking theory for practice. In theory, the Catholic Church also did not have an issue with the bible in the vernacular and eventually there would be approved vernacular translations. Orthodoxy is the same way. Who exactly is translating the Bible into German, what Orthodox Bishop or Council will approve it, what happens if they insist on changes in order to maintain a better Orthodox interpretation? These kind of issues will not be decided by some German "defector" to Orthodoxy. They will be decided by existing, good and approved Orthodox priests from Greece, the Balkans, or Russia who will take German opinion into consideration as they craft a German bible they can approve.
I was thinking more in lines with the general attitude of the Latin West towards the Greek Orthodox Church that they've had since the time of the Crusades. The divergence became much more than Orthodox attitudes tot he Bishop of Rome. There are differences between rationality versus mysticism, the Trinity, Original Sin, and a whole host of other issues. I think you are greatly downplaying them. The Filoque was not a minor issue in the 15th-16th centuries.
The disputes seem unclear and even petty by today standards to many people, but so do many Protestant vs Catholic issues. They are very important back then. They aren't going to be glossed over. Every single issue of difference would be addressed, and as Luther (or whoever) gets bogged down on that, the greater issues that lead to the Reformation will fester.
In reality, a Western Orthodox church just won't appear out of nowhere and the rest of Orthodoxy accepts it. There will be concern from the Orthodox Church that this new German "western Orthodoxy" will just be a trojan horse to introduce Latin heresy into their Church. They will make sure the German church follows good Orthodox practice before making it autocephalous.
That implies a great deal of oversight and control by Orthodox bishops. The Germans won't like this, so what will happen? They will declare themselves autocephalous and Orthodox even though the rest of the Orthodox Church does not recognize them? It would be ridiculous.
Certainly, the whole ecclessiasical establishment of the Holy Roman Empire won't defect to Orthodoxy. There is plenty of support for Catholicism in the Empire that would act against wholesale defection. So we're left with individual bishops and parishes in individual duchies and counties who may have a reason to protect Luther and his strange idea of becoming Orthodox. How do they move the local Church over to Orthodoxy? They'd have to begin negotiations, and the Orthodox patriarch simply won't say "Call yourselves Orthodox, I'm fine with it." They are going to go over doctrine, send missionaries to make sure these new Westerners get the theology and liturgy right. Only after a very long time could these scattered Orthodox Churches in Germany possibly be granted autocephaly.
And that is entirely ignoring the other issues like would the German Emperor allow this, or how many German princes would even see the benefit of this.
I don't think you are giving enough consideration to the practical difficulties.