WI: Western Mandate of Heaven?

Zioneer

Banned
So, the Chinese believed, in their Imperial days, that a just ruler was blessed by heaven, and should be obeyed, but a depostic ruler did not have heaven's favor, and SHOULD be removed, for a better ruler.

This applied to entire dynasties. If a dynasty was corrupt, then the state is allowed by heaven to go into civil war and chaos, until a new state, with a "just" ruler is chosen to rule.

But what if, beyond simply the divine right to rule, Western societies had this outlook? And how would they achieve this outlook?
 
Having the concept of polytheism remain active would be a big help. Under monotheism, the Mandate of Heaven is much more difficult to pull off. Perhaps a Roman Emperor adopts a kind of Stoicized version of the Mandarins, who create a nucleus for the ebbing and flowing of the Roman state?
 

wormyguy

Banned
The Roman imperial cult seemed to have been moving in this direction. Perhaps if it continues in a slightly different form or Christianity is stopped, it would resemble the Chinese concept of the "Mandate of Heaven."
 
Well, medieval europe did tend to believe that all positions of power were the result of God's will, so in effect a mandate straight from Heaven.;)

However, to get the Chinese definition of it I'd say your best chance is a surviving Roman Empire as it was already moving in that direction. A surviving Roman Empire also would change the structure of Christianity(as IOTL it was kind of an attempt to preserve the Empire or at least its influence) so maybe the Roman Emporer gets the same "Most Powerful under God" that the Pope theoretically had.
 
I think Roman Catholic political thought moved in this direction briefly after Trent, when the idea of "papal deposing power" was active. In this theory, the Pope could relieve subjects of their divinely-appointed duty to obey monarchs who were heretics (that is, Protestant), and it was not considered sinful to rebel against or kill said heretical monarchs. This idea freaked out the English to no end (James I/VI even wrote a book opposing it) and IIRC Henry of Navarre didn't much care for it either.

I don't know when the Church dropped the deposing power idea, but if it lasts longer it could have interesting repurcussions if/when the French Revolution comes around. If the National Assembly stays under the control of more moderate people, they could try to get the Church on their side by saying the monarchy's misrule had offended God and they were doing His work by ending it.
 
Well, this may sound stupid, but I always found the concept of the mandate of heaven echoed in the ideas of the contractualists Thomas Hobbes and John Locke (1).

Hobbes defended absolutism, but sustained that, when the King failed to guarantee peace and to safety, the society had return to a pre-civil state and the King could rightly be deposed.

Locke didn't defend absolutism, but his concept of "appealing to Heaven" when the King became a tyran has some similarities with the posibility of removing the Emperor under the Chinese doctrine.

Since the ideas of both thinkers (Locke and Hobbes) have been somehow anticipated in the writtings of the Late Scolastic Scholars, I think that it wouldn't be hard for the mainstraim European school of thought to have evolved to a concept similar to the mandate of Heaven. Before and after 1500, many Catholic Scholars, while defending the doctrine that all power comes from God, established limits for his rule and established (very limited) condition under which a King could be removed. While this school of thought was more centered in the individual than in a Dinasty (as in the Chinese concept), it wouldn't be so hard to extended it. With few variations, the doctrine of the Divine Power could have led to a concept similar to the Mandate of Heaven.

(1) I'm not saying this thinkers were inspired by Chinese ideas. I just find some similarities.
 
Well there is the pope and excommunication of nations/Kings, i always think it ment that God hates the recipient and all other kingdoms have the right to tear the heretic apart.:D
 
I think there may be some basis to build from in the story of David and Saul. Saul doesn't follow the rules, God withdraws his favor and applies it to David, after a bit of war Saul's dynasty is extinguished and David's take the throne. Though his execution of Ish-Bosheth's assassins does obscure the issue somewhat.
 
Well there is the pope and excommunication of nations/Kings, i always think it ment that God hates the recipient and all other kingdoms have the right to tear the heretic apart

Excommunication is a ceremony whereby the Catholic Church relieves itself of responsibility for your soul. It basically says "We render judgment unto God." If it were God's will then for your nation to be ripped to shreds, then so be it. The Church was going to sit idly by and watch it happen. If it were God's will for you to continue without harassment, so be it. But other Catholic powers and the Papacy weren't going to be on the friendliest of terms with you.

And, contrary to popular belief, excommunication is not a guaranteed ticket to hell. The only thing that really differs between a regular Catholic parishioner and an excommunicated Catholic is that the excommunicated Catholic cannot receive the sacrament or last rites until the excommunication is lifted.

As for the Western mandate of heaven, I can't really say I know any scenarios outside of what's been proposed on how to achieve it, but I'm betting it would have had serious repercussions on such polities as...say....the HRE and Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Imagine the divine right of the Holy Roman Emperor now permanently burned into the psyche of the German people. And then the Habsburgs suddenly get the mandate?

AUSTRIA WANK TIME! :D
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
The Iranians had an analogous concept, the farr (Avestan xwarnah) which descended from the legendary Kayanian dynasty to all legitimate rulers who followed. It was described sometimes as an eagle, and sometimes as a ram, and it would pass from one ruler to the next as soon as the "mandate of Heaven" was bestowed.
 
One could argue that this was a factor in the Holy Roman Empire, at least in the beginning: the Pope as Vicar of Christ and spokesman for God on earth, would crown the prospective emperor, thus giving him the right to rule.

Also, a lesser-known example is the Khazar Khaganate. The mandate of heaven applied here too, and may have actually been a Chinese influence dating back centuries (to the Gokturks at least). The Ashina khagan had his authority by the grace of the sky god Tengri (obviously later reconciled with God after the conversion to Judaism). Although power was eventually entrusted largely to the bek, the khagan was always the nominal head of the Khazars.
 
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