WI West Germany sent combat troops to Vietnam in 1966?
- Thread starter Jotun
- Start date
Nebogipfel
Monthly Donor
The POD should be easy - the conservatives got over 47 % in 1965, and came very close to a majority of seats. So a small shift e.g. from the (also very strong) liberal democrats should do the trick.
The German constitution is another problem - here some handwaving is needed.
I think the Australian experience in Vietnam could be a blueprint for the German involvement. So Erhard is re-elected in 1965 and is able to form a government without the liberal democrats.
Being aware that any larger deployment will not be popular, a token force
of about 100 or so specialists is send to Vietnam in 1966. This is generally supported by his party, but not overwhelmingly so. There is more critic from the social and liberal democrats (what actually was their position to the request in OTL ?), but nothing too serious.
However, a year later more troops are requested, this time combat troops.
Now Erhard faces more resistance, even inside his party. However, since
the deployment so far was without significant losses, he still has enough support. So in 1967 the first German combat troops are sent, among them
draftees.
Susano
Banned
That could work, actually. After all, it wouldnt be military and hence not really seen as taking part in the war. However, that would indeed only work for so long as the unit does nothing more then advisor jobs. Taking parts in battles would be a no-no. It would be even more restricted than the Bundeswehr's role in Kunduz these days...
That's why I am more interested in the political fallout than the military aspect...although I am pretty sure that German combat troops would perform more along the lines of the Aussies. The effect of having veterans in their ranks and lots of independent thinking throughout the ranks. Innere Führung and Führen durch Auftrag put to the test...
@Markus: Please bear in mind that I served as an officer in the German Navy for almost fifteen years until August of last year. Most contemporary Germans would consider ME reactionary for that fact alone. Political correctness at its worst...
I called the center-right politicians of the early to mid-sixties reactionary from today's point of view, of course.
No, I actually don´t think so.
We are talking about the GG of 66 here:
All the articles introducing a narrow definition of "defense" like Art. 87a GG, 115a GG weren´t in the GG until 1968.
So we have only Art. 26 GG "Prohibition of Wars of aggression" - but here, an allied government asks for assistance on its own territory.
That's why I am more interested in the political fallout than the military aspect...
@Markus: Please bear in mind that I served as an officer in the German Navy for almost fifteen years until August of last year. Most contemporary Germans would consider ME reactionary for that fact alone. Political correctness at its worst...
I called the center-right politicians of the early to mid-sixties reactionary from today's point of view, of course.
I don't. What were you on? Frigates, U-Boats?
At first, as a lowly enlisted, I was a radioman on D185 "Lütjens" for the first three years. After the whole officer training stuff, including getting a degree in "Staats- und Sozialwissenschaften" at the Bundeswehr university in Munich, I served on a type 122 frigate (F209 "Rheinland-Pfalz") and the last 4 years of my time, I served in military and naval intelligence.
Susano
Banned
Depends on the media situation. Now, we all know what the Springer propaganda would write, but theres also the Spiegel, and any government conservative-stupid enough to send any form of troops to Vietnam might also try to meddle with the Spiegel again, nevermind the fallout from last time, and then public opinion could get ugly.
But even without that Id say NATO or no, people wouldnt stand for it. And the only party which would come close to doing so is the CDU, not even the FDP would stand for such, and thus you need a CDU absoluite majority, with no dissenters about the Vietnam question, too...
Nebogipfel
Monthly Donor
"Nach Vietnam ? No, Sir !"
Was the headline of BILD, the biggest German newspaper in 1966 after the request. So even the staunch conservatives of Springer were against it.
I think snowball/hell describes the probability best. However, there was quite some pressure from the US in this issue. But even if Erhard gives in, he probably won't last long as chancellor - either the liberal democrats leave the coalition, or he is backstabbed by his own party (there were several state elections looming in 1967). So actually the outcome would possibly not have been that different from OTL - Erhard quit in 1966.
Still, an interesting POD - the whole issue could have severely damaged
German/US relations.
Was the headline of BILD, the biggest German newspaper in 1966 after the request. So even the staunch conservatives of Springer were against it.
I think snowball/hell describes the probability best. However, there was quite some pressure from the US in this issue. But even if Erhard gives in, he probably won't last long as chancellor - either the liberal democrats leave the coalition, or he is backstabbed by his own party (there were several state elections looming in 1967). So actually the outcome would possibly not have been that different from OTL - Erhard quit in 1966.
Still, an interesting POD - the whole issue could have severely damaged
German/US relations.
That's why I feel I'd have to play around with the constitution a bit and also with the political landscape of my alt-Germany to even make the whole thing remotely possible. I am aware of the difficulties to make it work and also that the proverbial metabolism end product hitting the equally proverbial ventilator in terms of internal German political and societal fallout as well as international relations (especially with the US) will be unavoidable.
My inner advocatus diaboli can even imagine a serious effort of trying to get Germany out of NATO (covertly aided by the GDR, among others). Although this effort succeeding would be extremely unlikely, maybe even ASB...
Hell yeah, keep your input coming. My ideas keep popping up like crazy
My inner advocatus diaboli can even imagine a serious effort of trying to get Germany out of NATO (covertly aided by the GDR, among others). Although this effort succeeding would be extremely unlikely, maybe even ASB...
Hell yeah, keep your input coming. My ideas keep popping up like crazy
Last edited:
Nebogipfel
Monthly Donor
"Nach Vietnam ? No, Sir !"
Was the headline of BILD, the biggest German newspaper in 1966 after the request. So even the staunch conservatives of Springer were against it.
I think snowball/hell describes the probability best. However, there was quite some pressure from the US in this issue. But even if Erhard gives in, he probably won't last long as chancellor - either the liberal democrats leave the coalition, or he is backstabbed by his own party (there were several state elections looming in 1967). So actually the outcome would possibly not have been that different from OTL - Erhard quit in 1966.
Still, an interesting POD - the whole issue could have severely damaged
German/US relations.
Was the headline of BILD, the biggest German newspaper in 1966 after the request. So even the staunch conservatives of Springer were against it.
I think snowball/hell describes the probability best. However, there was quite some pressure from the US in this issue. But even if Erhard gives in, he probably won't last long as chancellor - either the liberal democrats leave the coalition, or he is backstabbed by his own party (there were several state elections looming in 1967). So actually the outcome would possibly not have been that different from OTL - Erhard quit in 1966.
Still, an interesting POD - the whole issue could have severely damaged
German/US relations.
Article 5 of the NATO treaty is -
'Article 5 The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.'
i.e. NATO treaty rights only really apply to wars being fought in those areas, not worldwide. The US set NATO up in this way to prevent it being used to support French and British colonialism (so Britain couldn't invoke NATO and have US troops putting down rebels in Malaya) - but that cuts both ways; not to mention Vietnam wasn't even US territory. Given that NATO was supposed to be a defensive alliance, it'd look really bad to ask under NATO auspices for German help in a random third country.
The Vulture
Banned
The more I hear of your ideas, the more I want to see this TL. We see a lot of military stuff around here, but rarely the political effects of military actions.
I, for one, support this endeavor.
I, for one, support this endeavor.
Thanks for the support
I am still gathering ideas and the TL itself might be a long way in coming. I've got exams coming up and am in the middle of retraining as a customs officer.
Moreover, this will be my very first TL and I think I might have bitten off more than I can chew...it's not exactly the simplest premise and I am aware I'll have to do a LOT of research.
But since this era in German history is sadly under-represented in alternate history (for obvious reasons, since it lacks the morbid fascination of the Kaiserreich and the Third Reich as well as brilliant military minds as the Old Fritz or the Prussian Army reformers of 1806) I am determined to "do my very best" *snickers*.
(A virtual cookie for those who caught the joke at the end of the last sentence I am pretty sure those who did will all be German...)
I am still gathering ideas and the TL itself might be a long way in coming. I've got exams coming up and am in the middle of retraining as a customs officer.
Moreover, this will be my very first TL and I think I might have bitten off more than I can chew...it's not exactly the simplest premise and I am aware I'll have to do a LOT of research.
But since this era in German history is sadly under-represented in alternate history (for obvious reasons, since it lacks the morbid fascination of the Kaiserreich and the Third Reich as well as brilliant military minds as the Old Fritz or the Prussian Army reformers of 1806) I am determined to "do my very best" *snickers*.
(A virtual cookie for those who caught the joke at the end of the last sentence
I am pretty sure those who did will all be German...)Excellent idea
As a doctoral student of Vietnam, and the son of a vet, I find your premise wonderful. Since I read Gehlen's autobiography where he talks about his wish that the FRG could have done more against the communists, i have wondered what culd have been done.
Perhaps you can help me with another area?
Do you know of any history of the Free German youth in English?
Such work as I have done, shows GDR youth movements, adopting VC Units, as a form of Internationalist brotherhood.
Do to my brain injury I cannot read German, so I thought I would ask.
My deepest thanks
As a doctoral student of Vietnam, and the son of a vet, I find your premise wonderful. Since I read Gehlen's autobiography where he talks about his wish that the FRG could have done more against the communists, i have wondered what culd have been done.
Perhaps you can help me with another area?
Do you know of any history of the Free German youth in English?
Such work as I have done, shows GDR youth movements, adopting VC Units, as a form of Internationalist brotherhood.
Do to my brain injury I cannot read German, so I thought I would ask.
My deepest thanks
I think it would have been more likely for Nicaragua and Paraguay to have been granted to sent forces over to help over West Germany.