WI: Wernher Von Braun Emigrates Pre-War

Just a quick WI, WI disliking not being allowed to work on his true joy of a civilian space rocket, Wernher Von Braun moves to America some time in the mid-late '30s, how does this affect the war (does it affect it at all)?
 

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Just a quick WI, WI disliking not being allowed to work on his true joy of a civilian space rocket, Wernher Von Braun moves to America some time in the mid-late '30s, how does this affect the war (does it affect it at all)?

The Germans save vast resources (nearly spent as much on the rocket program as the US spent on Atom Bomb!) for use on more practical projects or just more weapons.
 
Well assuming the US picks him up with his knowledge of rockets unlike Goddard will mean no V-2s or crappier versions of them. With Von Braun perhaps a better version of the bazooka and an earlier version of the Bat. Perhaps then it could make for a faster victory over the Germans and more submarine kills by the US with them. I know rockets were also used prior to amphibious landings so maybe less casualties there as well but that wouldn't make a major difference in WWII.
 
Longer ranged Allied ballistic missiles impacting Berlin and other Reich cities, saving many Allied lives that were lost in OTL manning all those heavy bombers.
Ship-launched missiles softening up many Pacific islands before the troops come ashore, maybe even the Home Islands.


Chris
 
If he left Germany because he was forced to work on military missiles instead of civilian missiles, why is he working on American military missiles? Wouldn't he be starting the American space program? With his help, the US could land a man on the moon by 1969.
 

Tovarich

Banned
Longer ranged Allied ballistic missiles impacting Berlin and other Reich cities, saving many Allied lives that were lost in OTL manning all those heavy bombers.
Ship-launched missiles softening up many Pacific islands before the troops come ashore, maybe even the Home Islands.

But wouldn't Allied V2-style missiles be just as crap hitting their targets as the OTL German ones were?

And even today, surely only ship-launched missiles are of the Cruise variety?
Ballistic missiles are only launched from submarines underwater, using pneumatics to push them above surface first - otherwise the rocket engines would destroy the ship.

(Or am I completely wrong there?):confused:
 
He could get interred. He doesn't get recognised and ends up a salesman in South Dakota after the war. ;)

I tend to think this is closer to the truth than a lot of us might like to admit. I doubt he'd be interred, and he probably would end up in some kind of war work, but really, as of the 20s or 30s he hadn't done anything that wasn't being done to some extent in America already. My best guess is that he would find work out of his field, end up back in temporarily during the war and at best ends up with NASA/NACA as a low level engineer post war. More likely moves on and is something like a South Dakota salesman.

Now, if you can come up with a scenario in which he explicitly comes to America to collaborate with Goddard some very interesting things could happen, but it still requires something to get the government to pay attention to rocketry before the Germans start demonstrating the things in combat. Maybe if one or both of them are MORE interested in military applications we could get an early American Katyusha like weapon, but how much that advances things, especially without Von Braun building the A4, seems questionable.

The more I think about it the more I tend to think that rocket technology is one of the things that OTL more or less maximized in terms in of the mid 20th century.
 
But wouldn't Allied V2-style missiles be just as crap hitting their targets as the OTL German ones were?

Yes. The Allies don't need V2s anyways, they have perfectly good heavy bombers. I'll get to this in a minute.

And even today, surely only ship-launched missiles are of the Cruise variety?
Ballistic missiles are only launched from submarines underwater, using pneumatics to push them above surface first - otherwise the rocket engines would destroy the ship.

(Or am I completely wrong there?):confused:

Only partially wrong. The main reason the rockets aren't ignited underwater is because water is very very viscous and, well, they're rockets. Underwater. Those two don't really go together. There were plans to place Polaris missiles (the first American SLBMs) in surface ships, but those plans were never carried through for a variety of reasons, so they ended up limited to submarines.

There are also plenty of submarine-launched cruise missile designs, so the first part is rather confusing--you seem to be saying only surface vessels launch cruise missiles, which is patently untrue.

Anyways, the entire WI is basically ASB: von Braun has absolutely no reason whatsoever to emigrate to the US prior to WWII. He was doing just fine in Germany. Even if he does, he will have a null effect on what the Allies do; as noted above, they have plenty of good heavy bomber designs and simply don't need a, frankly, piece of crap ballistic missile like the V2. The effects on Germany will be larger since they won't be wasting money and resources on said piece of crap, which might very well find their way into things like Wasserfall, the R4M, jet fighters, and who knows what else.

The only thing he might have an effect on is post-war. If nothing else, von Braun was quite the salesman, and with an extra decade to get used to the US and no annoying Nazi connection (or at least nothing that can't be totally ignored, rather more so than IOTL), he might be able to persuade people to start looking into ballistic missiles a little sooner. With nuclear warheads, even the crap missiles they could produce at the time look relatively good, and they do have advantages over heavy bombers then. Still, it wouldn't be a big effect. Maybe a few years. And it might be counteracted by the lack of disassembled and tested V2s to poke over--now they have to develop all that stuff for the first time, rather than just copying and reverse-engineering. That would slow down both the US and Soviet programs (and the Brits, but they were a third wheel anyways).
 

Tovarich

Banned
....There are also plenty of submarine-launched cruise missile designs, so the first part is rather confusing--you seem to be saying only surface vessels launch cruise missiles, which is patently untrue....

Apologies for confusion.
I know subs can launch cruise missiles, of course.
What I meant was that surface vessels could not launch ballistic missiles, because of the heat/pressure of the rocket engines, and I've always presumed that is the reason submarines only launch them whilst submerged using pneumatic boost, so that the water protects the submarine.
 
Just a quick WI, WI disliking not being allowed to work on his true joy of a civilian space rocket, Wernher Von Braun moves to America some time in the mid-late '30s, how does this affect the war (does it affect it at all)?


Only marginally.

The effect on VB himself is probably negative. Without V2 he has nothing like the prestige he was to have in 1945. Probably he has to be content with writing a few books, like Willy Ley.
 
Apologies for confusion.
I know subs can launch cruise missiles, of course.
What I meant was that surface vessels could not launch ballistic missiles, because of the heat/pressure of the rocket engines, and I've always presumed that is the reason submarines only launch them whilst submerged using pneumatic boost, so that the water protects the submarine.

No, there were plans for loading and using them off surface ships (from the stern, so by the time they'd 'popped-up' and ignited they were clear of the deck.
There would be minor heat effects on the ship, but the prewet would handle that easily.

They never implemented it because surface ships dont have the submarines main advantage - concealement.
 
The effect on VB himself is probably negative. Without V2 he has nothing like the prestige he was to have in 1945. Probably he has to be content with writing a few books, like Willy Ley.
On December 19 1934, an A2 rocket designed by Von Braun reached 2.2 km altitude, and the next day a second rocket of the second type reached 3.5 km. By comparison, Goddard's best altitude was 2.7 km, reached on 26 March 1937 with a L-B rocket of his design. Goddard may have been the first, but Von Braun was better.

Also, a historical note: A lot of the V-2s missed their target, not due to inaccuracy (although they were very inaccurate), but to British Intelligence leaking (false) information that the rockets were overshooting London by 10 or 20 miles, which, with the then recalibration ended up with the rockets falling short by same. Not to say that bombers weren't a better weapon all around, just that the V-2 wasn't quite as inefficient as its often made out to be.
 
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As for a plausible WI...what about having von Braun meet a charming young Jewish lass during the waning years of the Weimar Republic. Infatuated with each other they decide to marry just prior to the rise of the Nazi party. Hitler's rise coupled with his distaste for civilian rocketry puts von Braun in an interesting place but one in which I think emigration to the United States is likely...

Perhaps he contacts Goddard out of desperation in order to escape Nazi Germany? Goddard might be able to pull some strings with Clark University, his alma mater, to allow von Braun to finish his schooling there should he go that route. Or he could finish his work in Germany and emigrate shortly thereafter.

Once in America he joins up with Goddard and proceeds to accelerate the later's projects. The influence of his wife's view on Nazi Germany could be enough to get von Braun to push for military applications of the rockets he and Goddard are developing. Though I don't think it gets much farther than OTL...
 
No, there were plans for loading and using them off surface ships (from the stern, so by the time they'd 'popped-up' and ignited they were clear of the deck.
There would be minor heat effects on the ship, but the prewet would handle that easily.

They never implemented it because surface ships dont have the submarines main advantage - concealement.


Something like this: http://youtu.be/ZDkh8Gz3W70

Might work better using a Royal Navy carrier. They had armoured flight decks.


Chris
 
Apologies for confusion.
I know subs can launch cruise missiles, of course.
What I meant was that surface vessels could not launch ballistic missiles, because of the heat/pressure of the rocket engines, and I've always presumed that is the reason submarines only launch them whilst submerged using pneumatic boost, so that the water protects the submarine.

Nope. Look up Sea Launch for an example of a surface ship launch missiles. Plenty of SSB(N)s were only capable of launching their missiles while surfaced, too--fully submarine launch was actually a relatively late-breaking invention. And, as I and Astrodragon said, there were US plans to base Polaris on surface ships.
 
Nope. Look up Sea Launch for an example of a surface ship launch missiles. Plenty of SSB(N)s were only capable of launching their missiles while surfaced, too--fully submarine launch was actually a relatively late-breaking invention. And, as I and Astrodragon said, there were US plans to base Polaris on surface ships.
I think the Italians actually converted a cruiser to carry a few
 
Only partially wrong. The main reason the rockets aren't ignited underwater is because water is very very viscous and, well, they're rockets. Underwater. Those two don't really go together. There were plans to place Polaris missiles (the first American SLBMs) in surface ships, but those plans were never carried through for a variety of reasons, so they ended up limited to submarines.
Underwater rockets actually exist iirc. They move so fast that they wrap themselves in an oxygen bubble to avoid your problem. Its mostly used in sub to sub combat.
Anyways, the entire WI is basically ASB: von Braun has absolutely no reason whatsoever to emigrate to the US prior to WWII. He was doing just fine in Germany. Even if he does, he will have a null effect on what the Allies do; as noted above, they have plenty of good heavy bomber designs and simply don't need a, frankly, piece of crap ballistic missile like the V2. The effects on Germany will be larger since they won't be wasting money and resources on said piece of crap, which might very well find their way into things like Wasserfall, the R4M, jet fighters, and who knows what else.
Thats not really what ASB means.
 
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