WI: Wenceslaus II of Bohemia and Poland survives longer than OTL

What if Wenceslaus II survives to 1320's to 1330's, how would this effect the history of Poland and Bohemia, one thing is that Wenceslaus III is guaranteed to marry the OTL Elisabeth of Toss which means he keeps the claims to Hungary and becomes Ladislaus V.

The other questions are, would any of the ITTL sons of Richeza Elisabeth inherit the Polish throne instead, since the sons of Richeza would inherit her claims to the Polish throne and claims to Greater Poland or Wenceslaus III would claim Poland instead?

this is the POD of the revised chapters in this thread
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=360669
 
Originally posted by kasumigenx
What if Wenceslaus II survives to 1320's to 1330's, how would this effect the history of Poland and Bohemia, one thing is that Wenceslaus III is guaranteed to marry the OTL Elisabeth of Toss which means he keeps the claims to Hungary and becomes Ladislaus V.

I think Wenceslaus II had a good chance to keep Polish crown for good. Piast dukes were too weak and disorganized to challenge him; he organized a competent administration, restored order and improved economy in Poland. AFAIK most Poles were only unhappy with his German inclination (i.e. using German as his first language and having German advisors), although Bohemians had the same problem. I'm not sure about Hungarian claims though - IIRC already Wenceslaus II was forced to
give up his Hungarian claims anout 1304.

Originally posted by kasumigenx
The other questions are, would any of the ITTL sons of Richeza Elisabeth inherit the Polish throne instead, since the sons of Richeza would inherit her claims to the Polish throne and claims to Greater Poland or Wenceslaus III would claim Poland instead?

Even if Richeza Elizabeth has sons with Wenceslaus II, they are still younger than Wenceslaus III - IMO that would make him a legal heir to all lands which belonged to his father, including Poland. Wenceslaus II was crowned as king of Poland in 1300, and his marriage with Richeza Elizabeth was among conditions put by nobles of Greater Poland for their support. Wenceslaus II met their demands, so technically, his position was strong enough, although the pope did not accept his coronation.

Theoretically, Wenceslaus III might have problems with his half-brother(s), who would have equal or even better claims to Polish and Bohemian crowns. OTOH he would be elder and he and his father would have much more time to prepare for potential succession crisis. I do not believe they would allow for splitting of the country - possibly Richeza Elizabeth's son would be made a duke of Greater Poland and vassal of his older half brother, king of Bohemia and Poland. Litle Poland (Małopolska), Silesia and other Polish lands would remain either under Wenceslaus III's direct rule or as his vassals.
 
Originally posted by kasumigenx


I think Wenceslaus II had a good chance to keep Polish crown for good. Piast dukes were too weak and disorganized to challenge him; he organized a competent administration, restored order and improved economy in Poland. AFAIK most Poles were only unhappy with his German inclination (i.e. using German as his first language and having German advisors), although Bohemians had the same problem. I'm not sure about Hungarian claims though - IIRC already Wenceslaus II was forced to
give up his Hungarian claims anout 1304.

Originally posted by kasumigenx


Even if Richeza Elizabeth has sons with Wenceslaus II, they are still younger than Wenceslaus III - IMO that would make him a legal heir to all lands which belonged to his father, including Poland. Wenceslaus II was crowned as king of Poland in 1300, and his marriage with Richeza Elizabeth was among conditions put by nobles of Greater Poland for their support. Wenceslaus II met their demands, so technically, his position was strong enough, although the pope did not accept his coronation.

Theoretically, Wenceslaus III might have problems with his half-brother(s), who would have equal or even better claims to Polish and Bohemian crowns. OTOH he would be elder and he and his father would have much more time to prepare for potential succession crisis. I do not believe they would allow for splitting of the country - possibly Richeza Elizabeth's son would be made a duke of Greater Poland and vassal of his older half brother, king of Bohemia and Poland. Litle Poland (Małopolska), Silesia and other Polish lands would remain either under Wenceslaus III's direct rule or as his vassals.

That is if he does not marry Elisabeth of Toss, I think if his father lives long enough if Wenceslaus is to become the King of Poland, he might marry Kunigunde (OTL Duchess of Swidnica) instead and Elisabeth marries to the sons of Vladislaus of Kuyavia who became the King of Poland in OTL, if Wenceslaus continues pursuing the Hungarian throne instead of the Polish one giving it to his younger brother, he will have problems with the Habsburgs who kidnapped Elisabeth of Toss and Capetian Anjous.
 
Originally posted by kasumigenx
That is if he does not marry Elisabeth of Toss, I think if his father lives long enough if Wenceslaus is to become the King of Poland, he might marry Kunigunde (OTL Duchess of Swidnica) instead and Elisabeth marries to the sons of Vladislaus of Kuyavia who became the King of Poland in OTL, if Wenceslaus continues pursuing the Hungarian throne instead of the Polish one giving it to his younger brother, he will have problems with the Habsburgs who kidnapped Elisabeth of Toss and Capetian Anjous.
Why should Elizabeth of Toss marry a son of Władysław Łokietek? Duke of Kuyavia was an enemy of Premislids, their competitor to the Polish crown (successful, IOTL). As such he was supported by Hungarian magnate, Amadeus Aba, follower of Charles Robert of Hungary. In early XIVth centuryy he was almost nobody, an exile - but thanks to Hungarian help he managed to return to Poland and was lucky enough that two Premislids died in time (if it was luck...). And besidaes, who will give Władysław's son a girl with very good claims to Hungarian crown? She was much too valuable to waste her on some minor duke form who knows where. Abd to make him a possible candidate to Hungarian throne? There were enough of them already.
Anyway, the problem of Hungarian crown will be solved , one way or another, by Wenceslaus II, since he is supposed to live longer.
It is very possible that he will defeat Władysław Łokietek ( he did it before IOTL). If so, his claims to Polish throne will be more or less secure. However, If Wenceslaus II is soundly defeated by Charles Robert, there is a significant chance that he will loose both Polish and Hungarian crown (for his son), since Charles Robert will try to put his own candidate on Polish throne - probably Łokietek, if he's available, or perhaps his son. Just to have an ally on Bohemian border, should Premislids try for another round. Another possible outcome is for Wenceslaus II to loose Hungary, but to keep Poland - depending of war / diplomacy with Charles Robert.


P.S. Punctuation is your friend. Please, please USE IT! Sometimes it is hard for me to understand what you mean.
 
Originally posted by kasumigenx


Why should Elizabeth of Toss marry a son of Władysław Łokietek? Duke of Kuyavia was an enemy of Premislids, their competitor to the Polish crown (successful, IOTL). As such he was supported by Hungarian magnate, Amadeus Aba, follower of Charles Robert of Hungary. In early XIVth centuryy he was almost nobody, an exile - but thanks to Hungarian help he managed to return to Poland and was lucky enough that two Premislids died in time (if it was luck...)
Anyway, the problem of Hungarian crown will be solved , one way or another, by Wenceslaus II, since he is supposed to live longer.
It is very possible that he will defeat Władysław Łokietek ( he did it before IOTL). If so, his claims to Polish throne will be more or less secure. However, If Wenceslaus II is soundly defeated by Charles Robert, there is a significant chance that he will loose both Polish and Hungarian crown (for his son), since Charles Robert will try to put his own candidate on Polish throne - probably Łokietek, if he's available, or perhaps his son. Just to have an ally on Bohemian border, should Premislids try for another round. Another possible outcome is for Wenceslaus II to loose Hungary, but to keep Poland - depending of war / diplomacy with Charles Robert.

I mean Elisabeth of Bohemia, the OTL wife of John of Bohemia would marry one of the sons of Wladyslaw the Elbowhigh in order to guarantee peace, Elisabeth of Toss is the original bride for Wenceslaus III, if Wenceslaus III marries her, Wenceslaus III needs to protect her claims to Hungary since she is the daughter of the Hungarian King so giving his brother Poland might be nicer for him and the empire would not over extend but he needs to war with Austria to reclaim his bride Elisabeth of Hungary(Blessed Elisabeth of Toss).
 
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