WI weapons used when practical.

Rational? The CIA estimates global military expenditures in 2007 as 1,200,000,000,000 dollars. The Stockholm Institute for Peace Research says 1,158,000,000,000. That is only the strict expenditure, bnot counting the loss of productive labour to humanity from employing people in the military or the costs caused by armed conflict. The RC claims 2,255,000 active troops, the USA has 1,426,000, India about the same number, Russia 1,200,000, North Korea about 1,100,000, and 40 more countries number over 100,000 active troops. This is not counting paramilitary forces or civilians employed in the arms industry or military support. Even if you assume that humanity has no other pressing needs, I'd much rather have had a manned Mars mission for that kind of cash.

Bright day
And imagine if all taxes were abolished and all the goverment clerks were free to better their work through a honest work!

Those people are not lost, nor is the money. Without goverment investment this kind of capital would for most part not accumulate.
 
I wonder if Soviet Union felt people in Red Army in june 1941 could be better employed elsewhere. Or if Spanish though it would be better if Cortez would remain pig farmer.

I'm pretty sure the Wehrmacht could have been better employed ion 41. Or 39, for that matter. And there aren't several million people in Mexico any more wjho might have preferred Cortez to stay home. A few Spaniards buried there, too, I wager.

Why does everyone always assume that war is rational because other people do it?
 
The Samurai had guns, (Nobunga I think his name was) and even developed their own distictive style of using them. But one they won their battles and gained control they rounded up the guns and eventually disposed of them, leaving them defenceless against Perry later on.
 
I'm pretty sure the Wehrmacht could have been better employed ion 41. Or 39, for that matter. And there aren't several million people in Mexico any more wjho might have preferred Cortez to stay home. A few Spaniards buried there, too, I wager.

Why does everyone always assume that war is rational because other people do it?

as for the several million people in mexico who would have prefered he stay home I am sure there are other millions of people who are glad not to have been human sacrificed.

War is a rational thing if waged for the right reasons and right time

Cortez helped the spanish people break out of their country and mingled genetics with indians in South America.

War is always about the mingling of genetics this is why hitler was destined to lose as well as the South.
 
War is only irrational if for some reason you consider humanity as a whole and consider your own existence, suffering and death irrelevent. Scarcity ensures conflict.

Someone has something I want.
If for some reason I cannot aquire the item by barter I must either go without or employ force to get it.
If I decide the item I want is not only a want but a necessity then the use of force is the only option unless I am willing to perish.
It can hardly be considered rational to desire my own death.

Work the same logic up to states and there you go.

It is only rational to not prepare for war if you know it will never happen. Since the above would imply that is the height of irrationality, you must prepare for it or risk subjugation or extermination. Again, if you consider only humanity as a whole my death may be meaningless or even beneficial, but it doesn't come across like that to me.

For among other evils which being unarmed brings you, it causes you to be despised.
 

CalBear

Moderator
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Rational? The CIA estimates global military expenditures in 2007 as 1,200,000,000,000 dollars. The Stockholm Institute for Peace Research says 1,158,000,000,000. That is only the strict expenditure, bnot counting the loss of productive labour to humanity from employing people in the military or the costs caused by armed conflict. The RC claims 2,255,000 active troops, the USA has 1,426,000, India about the same number, Russia 1,200,000, North Korea about 1,100,000, and 40 more countries number over 100,000 active troops. This is not counting paramilitary forces or civilians employed in the arms industry or military support. Even if you assume that humanity has no other pressing needs, I'd much rather have had a manned Mars mission for that kind of cash.


I think most people would want to see the money go elsewhere IF it wasn't needed where it is currently spent.

Doesn't do much good to be working away on your Mars ship and making neat little piles out of the money saved by eliminating the military if some less noble, but willing and eager, group of wacko shows up with AK's and steals all the money, wrecks the ship just to get the 0.01 grams of gold from the computer chips, enslaves you and lops off your right arm if you protest.

Military forces exist becasue there ARE bad people out there, lots of them. Frequently these bad people become leaders of countries and start to steal from their neighbors. Any other expectation is both counter-intutive and self destructive.
 

Redbeard

Banned
I guess Minie rifles ought to have been possible from the very first firearms firing lead bullets, and an army Minie rifles vs. muskets would probably have swept the field. But next year most others would have Minierifles too, and the advantage lost. Percussion vs. flintlocks would probably have had a similar effect.

In the more cultural (but very powerful) field a survival or contunuation of merchant empires like the Hansa might have lead to middle class ruling and general emancipation much before. The Ancien Regimes might be seriously challenged a couple of centuries ahead of the French Revolution.

Imagine Tilly and his 20.000 mercenaries being run over by 100.000 enthusiastic "Hamburger" conscripts under a talented commander who started life as son of a cabinetmaker.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
I guess Minie rifles ought to have been possible from the very first firearms firing lead bullets, and an army Minie rifles vs. muskets would probably have swept the field. But next year most others would have Minierifles too, and the advantage lost. Percussion vs. flintlocks would probably have had a similar effect.

In the more cultural (but very powerful) field a survival or contunuation of merchant empires like the Hansa might have lead to middle class ruling and general emancipation much before. The Ancien Regimes might be seriously challenged a couple of centuries ahead of the French Revolution.

Imagine Tilly and his 20.000 mercenaries being run over by 100.000 enthusiastic "Hamburger" conscripts under a talented commander who started life as son of a cabinetmaker.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

As I understand Hansa was anything but what we imagine today as a mediaeval merchant. At first they could not marry and they could not will hteir money to their children, that went only to their aprentices. I forgot other things, but Hansa would be some sort of panacea.
 
Doesn't do much good to be working away on your Mars ship and making neat little piles out of the money saved by eliminating the military if some less noble, but willing and eager, group of wacko shows up with AK's and steals all the money, wrecks the ship just to get the 0.01 grams of gold from the computer chips, enslaves you and lops off your right arm if you protest.

Military forces exist becasue there ARE bad people out there, lots of them. Frequently these bad people become leaders of countries and start to steal from their neighbors. Any other expectation is both counter-intutive and self destructive.

WE're not talking about justiofied expectations. Get it through your hewad. If you are saying that it is *necessary* to have a military because people are *bad*, you aren't arguing against my point. But if you are seriously trying to say that destroying a spaceship for a few grams of golds or crippling a potentially productive member of society for short-term gain or authoritarian self-gratification is rational conduct I'm afraid you've lost me.

It's the same perspective limitation that calls WWII a 'necessary war'. I have yet to meet anyone who could explain to me why Hitler's invasion of Poland was 'necessary'.
 
. Or if Spanish though it would be better if Cortez would remain pig farmer.


Actually, Spain probably would have been better off had they never conquered the Americas. While they gained untold riches, these same riches led to massive devaluation and inflation in Spain itself, and eventual economic collapse.
 
About the rationality of war, it is one of the most persistent of human institutions, rational or not. One mans rational act is another mans folly, to paraphrase somebody. _______________ Weapons development has on occassion yeilded spectacular results prior to the industrial revolution, Greek fire leaps to mind. But even under pressure many polities have ignored some of the possibilites available in weapons development. O'Connell mentions explosive artillery shells as being available for centuries before coming into widespread use, used in siege mortars and howitzers mainly. However their foibles were not systematically worked on to provide a better round for cannon, with incredible potential in naval warfare with wooden ships and on land as well. ________ Imagine a declining naval power doing a bit of early work on explosive shells and deploying them to face the newly dominant Oceanic powers. They may be able to wreak great damage in battle and give themselves a repreive to get their affairs in order.
 
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