WI wank Korea

You'd need to screw China pretty badly to get them to not demand and receive Jiandao (a POD at the Gando Convention would see the Chinese viewing that region as as Chinese as the rest of Manchuria, meaning conflict and it's not like Korea, even united, can stand up to Chinese manpower). Also not sure how getting part of Manchuria butterflies away the Partition, seeing as the Joseon probably end up in Japanese control anyways (nothing too big has changed at that point) and Japan's not going to be able to beat the USA and Russia/USSR (because their interests naturally conflict, Communists likely take power in Russia, still split Korea).

Korea getting more productive crops to fuel a population boom and naval advancements seem a more obvious way to help Korea, unless Japan, China, and Mongolia are gimped hard. Land expansion's only going to lead to further land conflicts, which no Korean nation since Goguryeo has really excelled at, while the Korean naval tradition has been around since the time of Three Kingdoms. Manchuria's land isn't rich enough nor safe enough to ensure population growth (if anything, they'll just get invaded from the steppe more) while the peninsula has been comparatively easier to defend. Think Venice as a merchant republic vs Venice as the would-be conquerors trying to unify northern Italy only to get stomped during the War of the League of Cambrai. Taking a Portuguese/English/Dutch approach would suit Korea's geographical position and economic health much better than launching more northern campaign in a neverending fight with nomads (neverending since the Chinese had been fighting off raid since there was China).

My thought is with the Gando Convention as the POD, the Japanese claim Gando as Korean land, and we go through the 20th century Korean history from there. The USSR and US respect Gando as Korean, and it's added to the DPRK upon partition. If the second half of the 20th century and the 21st century is conducive to it, then Gando along with the rest of North Korea unifies with South Korea into one Korea.

Manchuria, rich enough? Chinese were pouring into Manchuria despite regulations against it during the Qing. With the potato, Manchuria is very conducive to agriculture, not to mention with buckwheat, already a Korean crop. I'd love to mention quinoa too, but that might be for a more exotic TL where quinoa is spread outside the Andes.

Manchuria has rivers and defensive boundaries which would allow a limited Korean expansion into the region. Not to mention, Vladivostok, the premier port in the region, is very near Korea itself, just over 150 kilometers from the border of Korea which has changed little since the Joseon.

But Manchuria was liable to invasions by steppe hordes, which is what led to Manchuria becoming forever lost to Korea in the first place (Liao, then Jin, then Mongols, then Manchu/Qing). The Goguryeo were fighting Chinese dynasties, not exactly the most viable strategy for a long, prosperous history.

Also, Mt. Baekdu is going to erupt in the era (it's theorized that helped lead to Balhae's collapse and conquest by the Liao) since geographical PODs are ASB or something? Can't butterfly away natural disasters like volcanic eruptions and such a natural disaster will make holding Manchuria, well...

As for Vladivostok, Russia likely would've tried seizing it for the sake of a warm water port and getting the trans-Siberia railway to the sea, whether it belonged to Qing or Joseon.

IDK, just Korean track record for the last millennium and a half doesn't really show much of a military powerhouse so much as a nation outpopulated by all of its neighbors, a fact that would not change all that much with just the acquisition of Manchuria (which would be near impossible to hold for long, just too far to the nearest defensible border, too many enemies).

Yeah, Mt. Baekdu will erupt, and destroy the Balhae in the process, but it isn't like Mt. Baekdu has erupted since. Which might place a limit on the earliest date for Korea to seize even a portion of Manchuria, since before then Mt. Baekdu will wreck the state in charge of the area.

Russia can try, but it isn't like they'll automatically be successful. If the Koreans partner with China, they can rebuke Russian influence in the area.
 
My thought is with the Gando Convention as the POD, the Japanese claim Gando as Korean land, and we go through the 20th century Korean history from there. The USSR and US respect Gando as Korean, and it's added to the DPRK upon partition. If the second half of the 20th century and the 21st century is conducive to it, then Gando along with the rest of North Korea unifies with South Korea into one Korea.
The Chinese would likely claim it as Chinese though, since the Gando Convention was in the 1900s and Jiandao would've been Qing for centuries, as opposed to Korean for a few decades. Would be much more favorable for the USSR to appease the Chinese than to bother with Korea (at the time of the partition, neither side was actually expecting to permanently split the peninsula. It was supposed to be a joint trusteeship until unification and the occupation borders were apparently drawn arbitrarily. Then the Cold War came into play and we know how that went).

I mean, why would the USSR and US respect the territorial integrity of a, for nearly half a century, nonexistent nation dwarfed by all of its Great Power neighbors and whose territorial claims would be disputed by a far more powerful nation that both sides were attempting to court (well, trying to push their side to win in the civil war counts as courting in my book)? China's just much more powerful and useful to have friendly than Korea, as it were (population, resources, strategic location since it has about 1/5~1/6th of the area of all of Asia).
Manchuria, rich enough? Chinese were pouring into Manchuria despite regulations against it during the Qing. With the potato, Manchuria is very conducive to agriculture, not to mention with buckwheat, already a Korean crop. I'd love to mention quinoa too, but that might be for a more exotic TL where quinoa is spread outside the Andes.

Manchuria has rivers and defensive boundaries which would allow a limited Korean expansion into the region. Not to mention, Vladivostok, the premier port in the region, is very near Korea itself, just over 150 kilometers from the border of Korea which has changed little since the Joseon.

Rich enough here means enough to make up for the fact that that region's going to get raid bloody from acquisition to gunpowder era by nomads. Harbin's got chernozem, true, but it's a fair distance from Korea proper (no Korean nations ever went that far, hell, the Goryeo had logistical problems with the Liaodong peninsula). Liaodong itself had been Chinese since the Yan seized it from the Gojoseon, so that's rather out of the question for a stable territory rather than a militarized border, if it can be held.

True, having Manchuria as a stable heartland would make things much better for the Korean kingdoms. But, historically, it was never more than a frontier and getting defensible borders for it would mean expansion never seen in Korean history (aside from Gwanggaeto but that's why he's one of the two Greats of Korean history). Without expanding to encompass all of the plain and some of the mountains, having that as a stable agricultural region is going to be a bit tough (also, the core of Korea probably will migrate a bit more north as a result).

Agriculture
china_agricultural_86.jpg
Topography
ChinaTopography.gif
Goguryeo
engfig2_goguryeo391531CE.jpg

It's worth noting that the most agriculturally productive region in Manchuria is 1. on the other side of the Changbai Mountain range, making logistics harder (not impossible but not quite easy), 2. right next to Mongolia, horde heartland, while 3. being flatland (ideal for horse riders). It's just too big of a border to defend properly with Korea's manpower base, too, unless all the mountains can be seized (well, even then) but that's rather far from Korea itself and necessitates endless conflict with both the Chinese and not-yet-irrelevant Mongols (and possibly Turks or Khitans).

The Chinese were having problems with horde invasions in the north, even with the power of all of China. A Korean kingdom's not likely to have more success, unfortunately, and holding Manchuria is definitely going to mean conflict with them.

Perhaps they can hold more of southern Manchuria. But that's not agriculturally suited, being mountainous and all, compared to the central bit. Which is hard to defend, even with rivers, due to being a plain.

Once the Khitan or Mongol or any other steppe nation rises to prominence, Korean control over the Manchurian plain becomes much much shakier.
Yeah, Mt. Baekdu will erupt, and destroy the Balhae in the process, but it isn't like Mt. Baekdu has erupted since. Which might place a limit on the earliest date for Korea to seize even a portion of Manchuria, since before then Mt. Baekdu will wreck the state in charge of the area.

Russia can try, but it isn't like they'll automatically be successful. If the Koreans partner with China, they can rebuke Russian influence in the area.
It means Goguryeo is not likely to remain stable, since Balhae was their successor. Goguryeo being the best choice, makes the desired outcome a bit harder to get.

Rebuke Russian influence, like the Qing rebuked the Treaty of Peking, where they gave away Outer Manchuria? That necessitates a less inward focusing, more innovative China and that's a much bigger POD than anything to do with Korea (though that's a China wank and would probably still lead to Chinese acquisition of Manchuria).

While other nations have won against such odds, Korea's military history hasn't been spectacular, hence my doubts. It's not ASB for Korea to hold Manchuria, just never extremely viable is what I'm saying.
 
The Chinese would likely claim it as Chinese though, since the Gando Convention was in the 1900s and Jiandao would've been Qing for centuries, as opposed to Korean for a few decades. Would be much more favorable for the USSR to appease the Chinese than to bother with Korea (at the time of the partition, neither side was actually expecting to permanently split the peninsula. It was supposed to be a joint trusteeship until unification and the occupation borders were apparently drawn arbitrarily. Then the Cold War came into play and we know how that went).

I mean, why would the USSR and US respect the territorial integrity of a, for nearly half a century, nonexistent nation dwarfed by all of its Great Power neighbors and whose territorial claims would be disputed by a far more powerful nation that both sides were attempting to court (well, trying to push their side to win in the civil war counts as courting in my book)? China's just much more powerful and useful to have friendly than Korea, as it were (population, resources, strategic location since it has about 1/5~1/6th of the area of all of Asia).

An earlier Sino-Soviet split? It does seem hard, but maybe Mao needs extra help against the Nationalists, and the Soviets (and Koreans?) give help in exchange for recognition of Gando as Korean. I'm sure there could be a scenario where the United States might want to enforce something similar.


Rich enough here means enough to make up for the fact that that region's going to get raid bloody from acquisition to gunpowder era by nomads. Harbin's got chernozem, true, but it's a fair distance from Korea proper (no Korean nations ever went that far, hell, the Goryeo had logistical problems with the Liaodong peninsula). Liaodong itself had been Chinese since the Yan seized it from the Gojoseon, so that's rather out of the question for a stable territory rather than a militarized border, if it can be held.

True, having Manchuria as a stable heartland would make things much better for the Korean kingdoms. But, historically, it was never more than a frontier and getting defensible borders for it would mean expansion never seen in Korean history (aside from Gwanggaeto but that's why he's one of the two Greats of Korean history). Without expanding to encompass all of the plain and some of the mountains, having that as a stable agricultural region is going to be a bit tough (also, the core of Korea probably will migrate a bit more north as a result).

Agriculture
china_agricultural_86.jpg
Topography
ChinaTopography.gif
Goguryeo
engfig2_goguryeo391531CE.jpg

It's worth noting that the most agriculturally productive region in Manchuria is 1. on the other side of the Changbai Mountain range, making logistics harder (not impossible but not quite easy), 2. right next to Mongolia, horde heartland, while 3. being flatland (ideal for horse riders). It's just too big of a border to defend properly with Korea's manpower base, too, unless all the mountains can be seized (well, even then) but that's rather far from Korea itself and necessitates endless conflict with both the Chinese and not-yet-irrelevant Mongols (and possibly Turks or Khitans).

The Chinese were having problems with horde invasions in the north, even with the power of all of China. A Korean kingdom's not likely to have more success, unfortunately, and holding Manchuria is definitely going to mean conflict with them.

Perhaps they can hold more of southern Manchuria. But that's not agriculturally suited, being mountainous and all, compared to the central bit. Which is hard to defend, even with rivers, due to being a plain.

Once the Khitan or Mongol or any other steppe nation rises to prominence, Korean control over the Manchurian plain becomes much much shakier.

True, it wouldn't be easier and is basically a Korean wank, but on the other hand, China never really gained control over the region either.

It means Goguryeo is not likely to remain stable, since Balhae was their successor. Goguryeo being the best choice, makes the desired outcome a bit harder to get. It's definitely not "free land" for either China or Korea. But certainly Korea could gain more of that mountainous region (of which Gando is a part of) based on better results of something like the Joseon-Qing border treaty in the 18th century. Korea having all of Liaodong is over the top (even if I did it in Victoria II once). I suppose Gando is just a particularly beneficial border adjustment in Korea's favour.

Rebuke Russian influence, like the Qing rebuked the Treaty of Peking, where they gave away Outer Manchuria? That necessitates a less inward focusing, more innovative China and that's a much bigger POD than anything to do with Korea (though that's a China wank and would probably still lead to Chinese acquisition of Manchuria).

While other nations have won against such odds, Korea's military history hasn't been spectacular, hence my doubts. It's not ASB for Korea to hold Manchuria, just never extremely viable is what I'm saying.

Well, the worst unequal treaty of the Qing was probably that which surrendered Outer Manchuria, since giving Russia such nice ports like Vladivostok compared to the previous crappy ports on the Pacific they had (or utterly isolated ports like Petropavlovsk) really strengthened Russia as an enemy to China.

But if China is weak and Japan still "pulls a Meiji", Tsarist Russia is the best friend for Korea to prevent their historic fate of annexation. I guess then we might see Russia dominant (versus Japan), and then Russia could give Korea some gains like Gando (of more course less than the Manchuria gains Russia might want).
 
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