WI:WAllies instead invaded europe using italy.

TFSmith121

Banned
Breakout to the west - toward the Bay of Biscay.

Congratulations, all you've really done is move the Italian mainland campaign to the south of France, which has its own good share of mountains. Therefore a break-out seems unlikely.

You have also left Italy in the war and landed within a few hundred miles of their naval bases - allied navies will be more concerned about a surface action, than providing gunfire support to the landings.

Breakout to the west - toward the Bay of Biscay, with one army (US 7th) and drive north along the Rhone with the other (British 8th); Germans still have to fight a mobile campaign in the west and a positional one up the Rhone, or abandon southwestern France and weaken their hold on northwestern France.

Certainly a better prospect then fighting north up and over the Appennies, Po, Rapido, Alps, etc. for three years.

Italy is in the war means the Germans have to provide food, POL, and garrison troops to stiffen the Italians, if Sicily and Sardinia is any guide, and from one end of the Peninsula to the other, and manage a joint command - how is any of this a problem for the Allies?

And the contributions of the Italian navy and air force to the defense of Sicily would suggest that's not exactly a huge problem for the RN, RAF, USN, and USAAF in 1943-45.

Best,
 
Depends on when ROUNDUP goes in, of course, but the campaign season in NW Europe usually lasted to October; if D-Day is July (HUSKY analogue) that still gives the Allies at least 90-120 days of good weather

Not from a naval perspective, when mid September would be the limit. This gives you 60 days to capture and rehabilitate Cherbourg before cross beach supply starts becoming problematic.

Invasion forces would mirror those in HUSKY; the equivalent of four US divisions, three British, and one Canadian in the assault, with the equivalent of the OVERLORD forces in the build-up,

First you have to relocate those invasion forces to the UK between the fall of Tunisia and the end of June; secondly you need to get US divisions to the UK, with IIRC issues with both the availability of divisions and the shipping to get them across the Atlantic.
 
Depends on when ROUNDUP goes in, of course, but the campaign season in NW Europe usually lasted to October; if D-Day is July (HUSKY analogue) that still gives the Allies at least 90-120 days of good weather, complete naval supremacy, air supremacy (air superiority only if the LW withdraws everything from the Med, the defense of the Reich, and the eastern front, which causes all sort of problems for the Axis - multi-front wars are like that), and the "green" Allied amphibious forces are the same ones that historically successfully carried off CORKSCREW, HUSKY, BAYTOWN, and AVALANCHE in 1943 ...

Invasion forces would mirror those in HUSKY; the equivalent of four US divisions, three British, and one Canadian in the assault, with the equivalent of the OVERLORD forces in the build-up, and against significantly weaker German defenders in 1943 than in 1944 in terms of ground forces.

It would have been doable; the time frame probably puts the Allies a month behind the historical 1944 rate of advance, but that's hardly Gallipoli Verison 2.0.

Best,

I'm not sure if I understand your definitions for control of the skies?

Air Parity is self-explanatory, like the RAF and the Luftwaffe in the SE corner of England during the Battle of Britain

Air Superiority, meaning the side with it can conduct most air missions with only light losses, provided they have good escort. The side without it can conduct their missions only with the heaviest of escorts and suffer heavy losses. Like the Luftwaffe against the Anglo-French in Case Yellow.

Air Supremacy: Bombers roam enemy skies at will. Fighter combat air patrols over enemy air bases, strafing everything that tries to take off. Air forces facing enemy air supremacy can only operate at night and as interceptors over their own home country (and still at great loss). NW France, the Low Countries June 1944-VE Day.

Extraordinary Air Supremacy: No enemy air force present. Wiped out, or out of range, or lacking airfields. Norway, Torch, the opening days of Barbarossa, D+30 Japan's entry frex. Unescorted unarmed (no defensive gunners) bombers roam enemy skies at will. Fighters have only ground attack missions left to perform.

TBH, IMO Hitler goes "TILT" at the sight of a 1943 Roundup, cancels Citadel, and throws the kitchen sink, bathtub, and both his & her toilet bowls at France. He did things like that, bullying up against weaker opponents and ignoring the Big Bad. See: Short-circuiting Kursk in favor of Sicily, throwing his best into France while Bagration rolls, doing the Bulge while the Sovs are storming through Western Poland and East Prussia.
 
Not from a naval perspective, when mid September would be the limit. This gives you 60 days to capture and rehabilitate Cherbourg before cross beach supply starts becoming problematic.



First you have to relocate those invasion forces to the UK between the fall of Tunisia and the end of June; secondly you need to get US divisions to the UK, with IIRC issues with both the availability of divisions and the shipping to get them across the Atlantic.

Agreed with all. Sometimes I think we are misled regarding the naval weather of cross-Channel invasions due to the nature of the weather during the Battle of Britain. IIRC, the weather in the Summer and Fall of 1940 was freakishly warm, dry, and calm. Making for a prospective campaign season (USM) much longer than one could normally expect. IIRC, in 1940 the end of October would have been the limit, had all other factors (no navy, no marines, no landing craft, no air supremacy) been dealt with.:rolleyes:
 
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