WI, wall of battleships at D-Day?

[MatthewB]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Allied_warships_in_the_Normandy_landings#Battleships

Seven battleships took part: four British and three US:

• USS Arkansas
• USS Nevada
• HMS Nelson
• HMS Ramillies
• HMS Rodney
• USS Texas
• HMS Warspite

Let's triple that number to 21 battleships:

Per Wikipedia, in 1943 the British battleships Revenge and Resolution were recalled to Britain and decommissioned. Followed in Jan 1944 by Royal Sovereign. If we can hold off on the latter's handover to the Soviets we can add these three battleships. Now we need 18 more.

Just imagine the site of 21 battleships firing onto German positions. Here at Iowa Jima there were eight battleships.

 

[Spencersj345.346]

You could get 10 more battleships from the rest of the existing older USN battleships those being New York, Pennsylvania, New Mexico, Mississippi, Idaho, Tennessee, California, Colorado, Maryland, and West Virginia.
Also add in Queen Elizabeth, Valiant, and Malaysia and you need just 5 more modern battleships which I guess could be Renown and the 4 surviving members of the KGV class

 

[Cryhavoc101]

I would add that at Iwo Jima the Battleships took every opportunity to sail of and shell Japan so instead of the Island being shelled for 10 days it was only shelled for 3

I recently read 'Flag's of our Fathers' and the implied criticism of the USN and allied naval forces in choosing the headliner mission of attacking the mainland is explicit

 

[MatthewB]

being New York, Pennsylvania, New Mexico, Mississippi, Idaho, Tennessee, California, Colorado, Maryland, and West Virginia, Queen Elizabeth, Valiant, and Malaysia, 4 surviving members of the KGV class

IDK, were these available in Spring 1944?

 

[Spencersj345.346]

IDK, were these available in Spring 1944?

They were available but not in the theater...and the California and West Virginia were still working up after their extensive rebuilds completion

 

[MatthewB]

They were available but not in the theater...and the California and West Virginia were still working up after their extensive rebuilds completion

Nice.

It would have been massive. The only time I can think of 20+ dreadnought battleships all firing at once would have been Jellicoe's Grand Fleet at Jutland. Here's 20 or more battleships/battlecruisers of the Grand Fleet below.

 

[Zincwarrior]

I take it we are not including the fast battleships in the Pacific attached to the carrier fleets? If we are positing a scenario how many does that add? Wiki says four Iowa class and four South Dakota class. These had modern radar / targeting systems IIRC.

However, how effective is this? Wasn't Point du Hoc turned into a fair guesstimate of the surface of the moon by Texas?

 

[Spencersj345.346]

I take it we are not including the fast battleships in the Pacific attached to the carrier fleets? If we are positing a scenario how many does that add? Wiki says four Iowa class and four South Dakota class. These had modern radar / targeting systems IIRC.

However, how effective is this? Wasn't Point du Hoc turned into a fair guesstimate of the surface of the moon by Texas?

Sadly those battleships were not nearly as heavily experienced in shore bombardment as the older and slower battleships due to being used as mainly carrier escorts and well accuracy in fire support is quite important.

 

[Scott Washburn]

It wasn't just the number of ships available it was the crews to man them. The three "R Class" British battleships were decommissioned because their crews were needed to man some of the landing craft used on D-Day. England really was reaching the end of its manpower resources.

 

[Zincwarrior]

I missed the North Carolina class (add two more-man the US had a lot of battleships). They must have been decently accurate and we are talking a hypothetical. Washington and South Dakota fought in one of the only two battleship vs. battleship engagements of the Pacific war. Wisconsin sunk the Kirishima at the pivotal battle of Guadalcanal.

EDIT: that comes up to an awful lot of battlewagons. Brings a tear to my eye...

 

[GTStinger]

Were there enough targets that required massive shells to crack?
D-Day might be better served having a couple dozen more DD,CL,Etc shelling with 5" guns.

But a wall of BBs would be an awesome sight.

 

[TonyA]

I don't know about 21 BB's, but, there probably wasn't a single combat landing of WW2 that couldn't have used some additional gunfire prep and support. Doubt if Normandy was any different...

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

It wasn't just the number of ships available it was the crews to man them. The three "R Class" British battleships were decommissioned because their crews were needed to man some of the landing craft used on D-Day. England really was reaching the end of its manpower resources.

What he said!

Plus this quote from An Illustrated History of the Navies of World War II by Anthony Preston.

The biggest headache for the British, particularly the Royal Navy, was manpower. It was estimated that "Operation Neptune" would need 45,000 extra personnel, and this at a time when the Americans had been promised reinforcements in the Far East. To save manpower the Royal Navy decommissioned four old battleships of the Royal Sovereign class, five "C" and "D" class small cruisers, 40 destroyers (all of them World War I veterans) and the last of the Armed Merchant Cruisers. Yet it was still necessary to draft personnel from the Army and Air Force to make up the numbers.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Also add in Queen Elizabeth, Valiant, and Malaysia and you need just 5 more modern battleships which I guess could be Renown and the 4 surviving members of the KGV class

I can't remember were Malaya was, but IIRC Queen Elizabeth, Valiant and Renown were at Ceylon with the Eastern Fleet.

Three of the four surviving KGVs must have been at Scapa Flow with the Home Fleet. This is the paragraph that followed on from the quote in Post 13.

One fear which obsessed the Neptune planners was a counter-attack by the German surface fleet. It was believed that the Admiral Scheer, Lützow, Hipper, Köln, Nürnberg and Emden were still available for attack on the invasion convoys in the English Channel, and of course Tirpitz was still lurking in the Norwegian fjords, although she was under repair. In fact, by May 1944 the Hipper and Köln were still under repair and all the other ships were on training duties in the Baltic, some of them not fully operational. To watch this motley force the British kept three modern battleships, three fleet carriers and six cruisers, and it is not surprising that the Americans were unimpressed by British requests for reinforcements. But in fairness it should be remembered that the British had to run convoys to North Russia, and if the Tirpitz had completed her repairs and made an attack, the Home Fleet would not be available to protect "Overlord" further south. Accordingly Fleet Admiral King cancelled his objections and sent three battleships, two cruisers and 22 destroyers to the United Kingdom in April 1944.

However, the RM battleships Italia (ex-Littorio) and Vittorio Vento were IIRC anchored in the Great Bitter Lake at the time.

Does anyone know the status of Guilio Cesare, Andrea Doria and Caio Duilio in the first half of 1944?

I believe Richelieu was with the British Eastern Fleet in June 1944. IIRC Jean Bart had one 15" turret fitted. Lorraine was in the Mediterranean AFAIK. IOTL Courbet was used as a breakwater at Normandy. ITTL could she and Paris have been used as bombardment ships?

 

[MatthewB]

However, the RM battleships Italia (ex-Littorio) and Vittorio Vento were IIRC anchored in the Great Bitter Lake at the time. Does anyone know the status of Guilio Cesare, Andrea Doria and Caio Duilio in the first half of 1944?

Are you suggesting the Italian battleships join in the NGFS bombardment of their former German allies?

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Are you suggesting the Italian battleships join in the NGFS bombardment of their former German allies?

Yes.

AFAIK the 3 older Italian battleships were bombarding German positions in Italy in 1944-45.

 

[TonyA]

Yes.

AFAIK the 3 older Italian battleships were bombarding German positions in Italy in 1944-45.

That might piss someone off...

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

That might piss someone off...

Yes. The Germans.

To be serious, the ships exist and AFAIK the Italians have no shortage of trained manpower. It may not be a popular move, but it does provide 5 of the 14 battleships that @MatthewB wants.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

This is what the British battleships were doing in 1944. The source is British Battleships 1919-45 by R.A. Burt

 

[MatthewB]

Yes. The Germans.

To be serious, the ships exist and AFAIK the Italians have no shortage of trained manpower. It may not be a popular move, but it does provide 5 of the 14 battleships that @MatthewB wants.

Would this be the first time Italian dreadnoughts have left the Mediterranean?