WI Vinland had Iron

When things started to go bad, they were allready depending on Icelandic Merchants for trading purposes, not having the abilty to build the boats needed to get to Vinland

Not really... greenlanders were voyaging to vinland and markland right up until they vanished in OTL.

Again - Greenland did not fail so much as the people did not want to live in such a cold, dark climate on the edge of civilization. Eventually they gave up and headed for warmer pastures (where is still in question, for they did not flee to iceland or norway or the british isles... but they did go somewhere).

~

You want Greenland to prosper and/or Vinland to expand in OTL? Keep them pagan (or as a safe haven for pagans). Christianity really took a lot of the conquering/colonization spirit out of the Norse.
 
You want Greenland to prosper and/or Vinland to expand in OTL? Keep them pagan (or as a safe haven for pagans). Christianity really took a lot of the conquering/colonization spirit out of the Norse.

Christopher Columbus, Hernan Cortes and Francisco Pizzaro all laugh at this statement. ¡ja ja ja ja ja!

That said, Greenland as a Norse haven could be an incentive to keep the colony going. Norse pagans fleeing from Christian oppression could decide to stay in Greenland or a Vinland colony permanently, not because they have a 'conquering spirit' but because they would basically be outlaws in a Christian society, which would be unbearable. The question is, why didn't they do that in this timeline?
 
Christopher Columbus, Hernan Cortes and Francisco Pizzaro all laugh at this statement. ¡ja ja ja ja ja!

?

Those were Norse? Wow, didnt know that! ;)

Seriously, the original statement is actually valid. The Norse settled down with Christianity, because the targets of their war like ambitions were also Christian, and that limited the possibilities. The Spanish were fighting a crusade, and Christianity ENCOURAGED THEIR martial spirit, abilities, etc.
 
Those were Norse? Wow, didnt know that! ;)

Seriously, the original statement is actually valid. The Norse settled down with Christianity, because the targets of their war like ambitions were also Christian, and that limited the possibilities. The Spanish were fighting a crusade, and Christianity ENCOURAGED THEIR martial spirit, abilities, etc.

I find that claims about various religion's effect on 'martial spirit' to be somewhat debatable. I'll grant you that the effects of conversion will vary from society to society, but conversion to Christianity does not explain why the Norse stopped colonizing in the North Atlantic, as the 'targets' of that colonialism-the Inuit and Native Americans-were not Christian and thus as much 'far game' as as the Muslim victims of the crusades were. Conversion to Christianity explains why the Norse stopped raiding monasteries, but it does not explain why they did not permanently settle in Vinland.
 

katchen

Banned
Someone needed to take a closer look at that large inlet and river flowing out of Markland. The River that is known OTL as the Hamilton flows through what is known as Goose Bay, a lake and before that, huge forests from which lumber can be floated downriver to the Labrador Sea, then rafted across to Greenland. There's fur to be traded for as well. And if they bother to look at the ground and the minerals around it, iron deposits. Markland is part of the Canadian Shield. There is even an Atlantic Salmon run.
Markland has everything the Norse need--except farmable land.
 
Markland has everything the Norse need--except farmable land.

The estuaries have enough grassland for some pastoral farming.

Christianity does not explain why the Norse stopped colonizing in the North Atlantic,

It sorta does in the case of Greenland, by the mid 1300s a good chunk of the once free greenlanders were virtual slaves to the church - their property owed in leu of taxes to the church. That, coupled with the loss of the "viking" spirit, both played a key role in my opinion.

That being said, in the late 1300s... a thousand or so greenlanders that made up the western settlement did vanish... they left for greener pastures (rumours are they had converted back to paganism and/or to escape the church's greedy hands). Where? A good question that is for they did not starve to death for they had left behind some of their farm animals and no bodies were found. And they did not appear in Iceland/Norway/anywhere in Europe... which really only leaves one option.

Chances are, some were probably lost on the voyage and the remaining norsemen/women intermingled with the natives they had been trading with for centuries...


Christopher Columbus, Hernan Cortes and Francisco Pizzaro all laugh at this statement. ¡ja ja ja ja ja!

Well considering Mr. Columbus seemingly spent time in Iceland, at a time when Greenland was still alive and trading with lands for the west, we can see where he got his idea to "sail west" from. That, or from the Church records; the Vatican knew about "Vinland" from ~ 1000 AD on. So did many of the major heads of state in northern europe. Minor details. ;)
 
Someone needed to take a closer look at that large inlet and river flowing out of Markland. The River that is known OTL as the Hamilton flows through what is known as Goose Bay, a lake and before that, huge forests from which lumber can be floated downriver to the Labrador Sea, then rafted across to Greenland. There's fur to be traded for as well. And if they bother to look at the ground and the minerals around it, iron deposits. Markland is part of the Canadian Shield. There is even an Atlantic Salmon run.
Markland has everything the Norse need--except farmable land.

which is why I wondered if Vinland/Newfoundland might not be better. It has perfectly good farmland, grazing, and is, for the Norse, withing easy reach of Markland/timber/everything you said. Plus, Newfoundland being an island, the Norse would have a better chance of defending the place, instead of endless conflict with a continent full of hostiles...
 
there's two major issues with pulling up stakes and moving everything to Markland

1. Hostile natives

2. To far away from Iceland as for a practial trade route between them ...

If say we blew up a major vulcano on Iceland i could see them moving since they allready lost their link back to the homelands, but otherwise its a 'rather the evil you know, than the evil you can meet'
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
What caused Greenland to fail...well...nothing. Greenland did not fail - the people (norse) were adapting... they simply did not want to live in such a cold, miserable place any longer. The colony could have survived to present day; but the people choose to leave for greener pastures... simple as that.

So how does one save Greenland? Make it attractable for the norse to live there longer (despite the large profits from narwhale ivory, etc).
Also: there are signs that the Norse Greenlanders relation with the Inuits was deteriorating, so that probably was a part of why they left.
 
Top