WI: Vikings reintroduce horses to the Americas?
- Thread starter ArKhan
- Start date
Did the Norse really use or have horses? I have no idea. Let's find out...
Okay, so some research, later, here's the deal. They did indeed have horses, including the ancestor of the modern Icelandic horse. However, they didn't really fight from horse and their horses were small ponies.
Given that, if those horses were introduced into the Americas, they'd be best suited for cold climates and be more useful as pack animals than for riding. It would still be very interesting, though.
Anyway, here's a thread I posted on the topic, early in my stay on the board. Didn't get many replies, but it's a start.
Cheers,
Ganesha
They had horses in Greenland and did quite some work in securing winter fodder for the animals such as irrigation!
No they didn't apparently use the horse as a weapon of war - as far as we know - but the nobility had used stirrups and spurs for some time. I.P. Stephenson say they might have used mounted units for pursuit though combat by men of valor was done on foot.
So taking horses into an environment without fodder restrictions may result in a larger horse; however if New Foundland is the furthest of Norse exploration/settlement you need to find a way getting them to the mainland.
Transportation of horses to Vinland shouldn't be too much of problem as they according to sagas did bring cattle along!!!
No they didn't apparently use the horse as a weapon of war - as far as we know - but the nobility had used stirrups and spurs for some time. I.P. Stephenson say they might have used mounted units for pursuit though combat by men of valor was done on foot.
So taking horses into an environment without fodder restrictions may result in a larger horse; however if New Foundland is the furthest of Norse exploration/settlement you need to find a way getting them to the mainland.
Transportation of horses to Vinland shouldn't be too much of problem as they according to sagas did bring cattle along!!!
Yes, I find the scene in 'the 13th Warrior' where 'the 12' are mocking 'the 13th' for only bringing a dog to war quite humorous, considering that the horses the Norse used were substantially shorter than the horses the Arabian people were using.
Meh - it's Holly 'never let the truth get in the way of a good story' wood.
Scandinavians used horses for combat prior to the "viking" period quite extensively, at least according to the sagas and the few early burials. But in the 8th-10th c. yes, it's just funny.
The Icelandic horse range from 12.3 to 14.3 hands. Anything 14 hands is pretty good size.
This is actually a very reasonable POD. Consider the Criollo horse. In 1540 the Spanish abandoned 12-45 horses in Argentina. By 1580 there were 12,000 feral horses and this grew to hundreds of thousands a century later. The Criollo breed evolved to be more robust than their Spanish ancestors with legendary endurance.
The trouble is the Norse were stuck on Newfoundland, where feral horses would be trapped on a big island. Had they lost some horses near the Saint Lawrence river those horses would likely proliferate across the continent very quickly.
Whether the natives would figure out how to ride them or just hunt them for food is another question. It would speed things up considerably if native peoples were able to interact with the Norse.
This is actually a very reasonable POD. Consider the Criollo horse. In 1540 the Spanish abandoned 12-45 horses in Argentina. By 1580 there were 12,000 feral horses and this grew to hundreds of thousands a century later. The Criollo breed evolved to be more robust than their Spanish ancestors with legendary endurance.
The trouble is the Norse were stuck on Newfoundland, where feral horses would be trapped on a big island. Had they lost some horses near the Saint Lawrence river those horses would likely proliferate across the continent very quickly.
Whether the natives would figure out how to ride them or just hunt them for food is another question. It would speed things up considerably if native peoples were able to interact with the Norse.
Didn't that cause genetic issues? Do we have any sources for how genetically healthy those criollo horses were?
And I think that even if Native Americans didn't ride horses, they would still figure out to use them to carry packs and maybe pull carts.
Cheers,
Ganesha
Considering all Thoroughbreds are descended from 40 horses, genetic health should be theoretically possible.
Fertility is an issue though. Different breeds have different fertility. For example Arabians are much more fertile than northern European horses. I have no idea how Viking horses compare.
Why just Vinland? Could the Vikings not have traded off/lost some horses to the Dorset peoples in Helluland (Baffin Island) and/or Markland (Labrador)? With the Medieval Warm Period, these horses might be able to survive for a few generations before adapting to even harsher conditions.
Now, the horses in Labrador probably are unlikely to spread even across the whole Quebec Peninsula, considering the low population density inland.
These horses could potentially keep the Dorset cultures going for a bit longer than OTL, or-- if they're used as mounts-- could encourage expansion of the Innu or Dorset or Beothuk cultures. Certainly, it would make for some interesting archaeological debates ITTL.
As for fertility, Wikipedia sez (of the Icelandic horse, the Icelandic descendant of the horses that would be introduced to Vinland/Markland/Helluland here):
Now, the horses in Labrador probably are unlikely to spread even across the whole Quebec Peninsula, considering the low population density inland.
These horses could potentially keep the Dorset cultures going for a bit longer than OTL, or-- if they're used as mounts-- could encourage expansion of the Innu or Dorset or Beothuk cultures. Certainly, it would make for some interesting archaeological debates ITTL.
As for fertility, Wikipedia sez (of the Icelandic horse, the Icelandic descendant of the horses that would be introduced to Vinland/Markland/Helluland here):
and even
so I don't think that should be a problem.
katchen
Banned
If the Norse established a settlement on Markland (perhaps at present day Goose Bay, Labrador) and brought horses with them, the Norse would not be staying exclusively on the coast for very long. The Norse would be traveling inland, looking for furs and probably rather quickly discovering both the St. Lawrence Valley and Haudanasee. On horseback, the Norse could reach in one season, Cahokia and the Mississippian People.
Also, the Norse would not be likely to introduce horses without introducing cattle, sheep, pigs and possibly domesticated reindeer to Markland and Vinland (with all their attendant diseases). Domesticated reindeer to Helulland as well. The Norse got along reasonably well with the Saami to their north. And eventually honeybees for honey for the mead Norse like to drink so much. So yes, we'd be looking at a full blown Ericcsonian Exchange. And Native American peoples would quickly learn the value of all of the Norse's domesticated animals. Sheep for wool, (cows for milk, not so much due to lactose intolerance), cattle and pigs raised for food, cattle and horses pulling plows and all those European crops from wheat and rye to sweet peas and apples and peaches. It is quite possible that the mouldboard plow would diffuse across North America almost as quickly as European diseases.
Then again, there is another real possibility. The local Naskapi (Cree) of Markland would learn the care, feeding and fighting from horses and when the Little Ice Age makes life difficult in the North Woods of Markland, come down upon Haudananasee like so many Mongols and take over eastern North America, all the way to the North American prairie and steppes, growing in numbers and multiplying all the way. Eventually, by the 1400s, perhaps a Mongol style Assaniboine horse empire taking Tenochtitlan and the Valley of Mexico. It will likely be the Cree (Jaffa Cree??) since the Lakota and the Kiowa and the Shoshoni will likely be overshadowed early on.
Also, the Norse would not be likely to introduce horses without introducing cattle, sheep, pigs and possibly domesticated reindeer to Markland and Vinland (with all their attendant diseases). Domesticated reindeer to Helulland as well. The Norse got along reasonably well with the Saami to their north. And eventually honeybees for honey for the mead Norse like to drink so much. So yes, we'd be looking at a full blown Ericcsonian Exchange. And Native American peoples would quickly learn the value of all of the Norse's domesticated animals. Sheep for wool, (cows for milk, not so much due to lactose intolerance), cattle and pigs raised for food, cattle and horses pulling plows and all those European crops from wheat and rye to sweet peas and apples and peaches. It is quite possible that the mouldboard plow would diffuse across North America almost as quickly as European diseases.
Then again, there is another real possibility. The local Naskapi (Cree) of Markland would learn the care, feeding and fighting from horses and when the Little Ice Age makes life difficult in the North Woods of Markland, come down upon Haudananasee like so many Mongols and take over eastern North America, all the way to the North American prairie and steppes, growing in numbers and multiplying all the way. Eventually, by the 1400s, perhaps a Mongol style Assaniboine horse empire taking Tenochtitlan and the Valley of Mexico. It will likely be the Cree (Jaffa Cree??
) since the Lakota and the Kiowa and the Shoshoni will likely be overshadowed early on.