WI Vienna fell in 1683?

Contemporaries wrote that the fall of Vienna in 1683 was only one bomb in a catacomb away that was just in time muted IOTL.

What if the bomb wasn't muted and digged a hole into the walls, making the Ottomans conquer Vienna?

Any ideas?
 
I think 1683 is fairly late in the day. The Ottomans may well be unable to hold on to Vienna. The Habsburgs would be weakened, but not necessarily wiped out, with territorial losses in Hungary and a peace on less than favourable terms until the next round.

Now 1529...
 

Phönix

Banned
...It would have been the end of the Turks..

Lets face it, if they would have conquered Vienna, the cappital of the HRE (I think it was at that time), the pope would have called for a cruasade, and even without, England, all of Germany(HRE), and like every other Christian country in West Europ exept of France would have started to fight.. it was already the 17th century.. I dont think they would have allowed the Ottomans to come that far.. it is already like on the doorstep of them...

Plus the Ottoman empire was already streched out.

But it would have been the end of Austria as such, the name might have surrvived, but with time Bavaria would have taken it at least.. or even France and Italy all of the HRE...(exept of Prussia)...
 
Well... even if the mine explodes, they still have to face the large German-Polish relief force sent against them. However, if they somehow manage to stop the allied force and keep Vienna over the winter than i think the Ottomans would be in a really good position to dictate terms to the Habsburgs and Vienna could serve as a very important supply base on the Danube that could make other campaigns into Europe possible.

But I doubt they would keep it for long though... Kara Mustafa seems too incompetent to fully take advantage of the victory and we also could see a new alliance formed (French lead maybe).
 
The Ottomans would probably only hold Vienna for a short time. I think in the long run, the only countries that may benefit from Austria's defeat, may be Hungary, the northern German states, or the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
 
The Ottomans would probably only hold Vienna for a short time. I think in the long run, the only countries that may benefit from Austria's defeat, may be Hungary, the northern German states, or the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

I'd say France is going to profit from it also, in an indirect way. ( the way to the Rhine is open, now )
 
Austria and France were enemies, France and the Turk allies working to the same ends (much like England and Russia against Germany in both Wars). Protestants were more concerned with defending their own christian freedom from the Catholic powers than that of other christians. So don't expect England and Sweden and north Germany to march off to attack the infidel, rather to weaken France and Spain (the old English bogeys) or reduce Poland-Lithuania, Austria and Bavaria, presently threatened by the Turk. As has been stated, even if Vienna falls, who can conceive of the Turk moving much farther - he hasn't advanced much since 1550 - and only then will a Protestant League consider defending each other but even this is unlikely. Unlike Central Europe, Germany (and Italy) are densely populated, broken by rivers, woods and mountains.

Even if the Turks are not thrown back within two years, it will take a decade or two to digest Austria, Bohemia, Poland-Lithuania and Venice - assuming it's even possible for the Turk to do with the aid of France, Brandenburg and Sweden - and I think not. Once contiguous borders are created along the Danube in Bavaria and across Silesia and Poland, then and only then will the German and Scandinavians united against the Turk, at which point the hollow balloon will collapse and Bosnia be re-established in Thrace and Macedonia. That is, Calvinist Hungary will be freed (with her medieval adjuncts Transylvania, Croatia, Bosnia and what is now north Serbia) and a flood of moslem colonists will be pressed back to a line running east-west from the Black Sea to the Adriatic about where Albania is.

The Turks will be stronger for it, the French will have their Rhine border and probably Baden, Westphalia and the Austrian Netherlands. Prussia and Bavaria will contest primacy in Germany, but Bavaria though Emperor will be devastated and gained little territorially except maybe Tirol and some Italian towns. Brandenburg-Prussia will become a Kingdom as the Imperial dignity is weakened, strengthened by conquest in Lithuania, west Poland, Silesia, Saxony and various other territories, also perhaps Franconia (The Brandenburgers held Hof I believe in what is now north Bavaria). Sweden will have gained territory in Livonia and parts of Lithuanian Ruthenia (Belarus). Other than that, a Vasa on the throne? The question then becomes whether Sweden is weakened enough that it loses it all to Russia.
Bohemia and Great Hungary become question marks.

Liberated by an alliance of powers, they become pawns in a struggle for influence. Bohemia may be given to the Wettins in exchange for Saxony, or given to the Dukes of Brunswick (as heirs of a sort to the Winter King's wife Elizabeth Stuart) in exchange likewise for 'Hanover'. If the French want to or have the power, maybe James III of England becomes King. I suspect that Brandenburg either takes it outright and outflanks Saxony, or takes Saxony in exchange.

Still, at the end of the day, it has to be said that the chances were small that the Turks could have held the city for any serious length of time given the need to crush a relief army (thus setting up the destruction of their enemies) and then the need to overrun densely populated areas of defensive terrain at the end of a long supply chain.
 
I used to read some analysis saying that it was impossible for Turkish army to survive the coming winter in occupied Vienna, even if they took the city and smashed relief force into pieces (two miracles at once, and miracles rarely happen in pairs). Keyword is "supplies". Turkish attack force had been created and supplied much the same way as Mongol hordes. After initial food supply had been exhausted, they could only survive by moving constantly and foraging on their way. Beside, much of the army had been composed from Southerners, unfamiliar with Central European winters. So, it could make as much good for Turks to take Vienna as it made for Napoleon to take Moscow.
 

Phönix

Banned
The only question that remains at the end of the day is, why did they tried it? ... The attack of Vienna was theyre doom.. You dont fuck with Germany and survive... even Rom fell. ;)

But seriously now, the wasted huge amount of Money, Food and Men. And declared war on Austria...

Greed Greed Greed... :mad:
 
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