WI: Versailles Treaty were a little different?

JJohnson

Banned
Let's say that WW1's Treaty of Versailles ended with this:
-Hungary with the bit from Slovakia in this map
-France gets Alsace Lorraine
-Poland gets its little bit of Upper Silesia
-German Austria is formed with Preßburg, Ödenburg, and the other German cities next to Burgenland, and Teschen Silesia.
-Germany can keep the monarchy but not Wilhelm II, and Prussia must break into its provinces; loses North Schleswig in a plebiscite, and write a new constitution to provide a more limited monarchy and stronger parliament
-Germany's army is limited to 150k; navy 1/4 the size of the UK; reparations limited to paying for the rebuilding of France and Belgium plus the cost of the war borne by the Allies, which can be paid in coal, manufactured goods, or gold/silver
-Romania gets Transylvania, but must create an autonomous province for Szekerland for Hungarians and Germans there
-Kurdistan, Greater Armenia, and Greater Greece (otl plus Aegean Turkish provinces, northern Epirus, and Cyprus) are created
-no Polish corridor, but free port rights in Danzig and Gdingen for Poland.


-Yugoslavia is created as otl

Assume that were the outcome of the war. Would the UK be satisfied? Germany? Austria and Hungary? France? The US?
 
-no Polish corridor, but free port rights in Danzig and Gdingen for Poland.

That will turn out well not considering that was basically the deal in Danzig and guess what they just about screwed the Poles over in the Polish-Soviet War I would give them a corridor let the Germans keep Danzig but have to construct a port in Gdynia for Polish use
 
Given the standards of the day, why not forcibly remove East Prussia altogether and force migrate them to Germany (de-Germanizing it). Balance it with milder terms like these for the other parts of the postwar settlement.
 
Given the standards of the day, why not forcibly remove East Prussia altogether and force migrate them to Germany (de-Germanizing it). Balance it with milder terms like these for the other parts of the postwar settlement.


Standards of what day?

The only people who did that were "savages" like the Turks. It was not an option in Europe until 1945 - and then only in areas overrun by the Russians.
 
Doubt if Germany would be satisfied or at least a substantial portion of the German people. Its hard to get people's votes by paying reparations and being reduced to a second class power. The urge for Germany to grasp its role in the Sun will remain. The imbalance of power with a weak Poland replacing Russia on the Eastern frontier will make it possible

France acted the same way after the Prussian war. It was fear of Germany more than the desire for Alsace and Lorraine that drove French foreign policy
 
Let's say that WW1's Treaty of Versailles ended with this:
reparations limited to paying for the rebuilding of France and Belgium plus the cost of the war borne by the Allies, which can be paid in coal, manufactured goods, or gold/silver

Are you sure that this will be less than OTL?
 
Let's say that WW1's Treaty of Versailles ended with this:
-Hungary with the bit from Slovakia in this map
Slovakia could live with that, after all post Vienna agreement 1938 similar border was reached and Slovakia did just fine. However some adjustment would need to be done as after 1938 to many Slovaks ended in Hungary. Something around 400 K.

Some towns, like Kassa ot Pressburg had very mixed populations.
According to 1921 census, Kassa some 60 %Slovaks and Czechs, 20 % Hungarians, 10 % Jewish and app 5% German, 5% foreigners. Surrounding areas were mostly Slovak.


-German Austria is formed with Preßburg
Pressburg is similar case as Kassa. App 45 % Slovak, 30% Hungarian, 20 % German, 5 % Jewish, and 5% Foreigners.

Jewish and foreigners very likely identify themselves in last A-H census as Hungarians or Germans.
 
Slovakia could live with that, after all post Vienna agreement 1938 similar border was reached and Slovakia did just fine. However some adjustment would need to be done as after 1938 to many Slovaks ended in Hungary. Something around 400 K.

Some towns, like Kassa ot Pressburg had very mixed populations.
According to 1921 census, Kassa some 60 %Slovaks and Czechs, 20 % Hungarians, 10 % Jewish and app 5% German, 5% foreigners. Surrounding areas were mostly Slovak.



Pressburg is similar case as Kassa. App 45 % Slovak, 30% Hungarian, 20 % German, 5 % Jewish, and 5% Foreigners.

Jewish and foreigners very likely identify themselves in last A-H census as Hungarians or Germans.

And according to the last Hungarian count in 1910 Kassa had a population of 44 211 and 33 350 said they were hungarian with 6 547 slovakians etc.

The point is aside from not completly trusting either the slovakian or hungarian version is that most of the populace was bilingual and said what was in its best interest at the time (and putting aside the change caused by hungarians who flad the city). And my point is not only about Kassa.
 
And according to the last Hungarian count in 1910 Kassa had a population of 44 211 and 33 350 said they were hungarian with 6 547 slovakians etc.

The point is aside from not completly trusting either the slovakian or hungarian version is that most of the populace was bilingual and said what was in its best interest at the time (and putting aside the change caused by hungarians who flad the city). And my point is not only about Kassa.
Exactly.
Actually it is very likely, People speaking Hungarian and Slovak identify themself according to situation. :D
It was economically and carrier wise better to be Hungarian in A-H. And why to lie in Czechoslovakia it was better to be Slovak. As a said many times. Czechoslovakia had this nice and basically legal way how to decrease Hungarian claim - granted Jewish population right to identify themselves as such.

There were many towns in A-H where population in town identified themselves as majority while country side had minority population.

Otherwise as I said Slovakia would survive such a borders. And very likely if it stayed in such a borders ever since there woild not be many Hungarians living in Slovakia now. Assimilation would be much quicker.

App. 400000 people in Bekes Csaba area claimed Slovak as second language I believe. Some 200000 in first Hungarian census after WWI. Some 120000 before WWII. There are marginal numbers left now. Some 70000 moved out after WWII.

But with numbers I am going from top of my head. Would need to check my library so please do mot shoot me over them. ;)
 
Standards of what day?

The only people who did that were "savages" like the Turks. It was not an option in Europe until 1945 - and then only in areas overrun by the Russians.

I suspect he's referring to the Greek-Turkish population transfer of 1923, which was overseen by the League of Nations and even nabbed its architect a Nobel Peace Prize. It involved about one million Christians leaving Turkey for Greece, and half a million Muslims leaving Greece for Turkey (religion was the only determining factor, rather than language spoken or something).

I'm not entirely certain how plausible a German/Polish population transfer is, but I think it's definitely possible, for up to a couple million flowing in each direction - as long as it's a reciprocal deal.

Poland would definitely support such a move (they were desperate for more Poles and less of everyone else); Germany...probably less enthusiastic, but who knows.
 

SsgtC

Banned
At this point in time though, didn't allot of people who were ethnically Polish identify as German though?

Poland would definitely support such a move (they were desperate for more Poles and less of everyone else); Germany...probably less enthusiastic, but who knows.
 
I suspect he's referring to the Greek-Turkish population transfer of 1923, which was overseen by the League of Nations and even nabbed its architect a Nobel Peace Prize. It involved about one million Christians leaving Turkey for Greece, and half a million Muslims leaving Greece for Turkey (religion was the only determining factor, rather than language spoken or something).

I'm not entirely certain how plausible a German/Polish population transfer is, but I think it's definitely possible, for up to a couple million flowing in each direction - as long as it's a reciprocal deal.

Poland would definitely support such a move (they were desperate for more Poles and less of everyone else); Germany...probably less enthusiastic, but who knows.

Yeah, that's what I was meaning, plus I thought it had been done to a lesser degree before. We'd now call it ethnic cleansing and wrong, but that era treated it differently I thought.
 
Yeah, that's what I was meaning, plus I thought it had been done to a lesser degree before. We'd now call it ethnic cleansing and wrong, but that era treated it differently I thought.

The fact that Eastern Europe was so ethnically mixed to begin with speaks to this not having been common practice before.
 
Frankly, this settlement strikes me as not much less likely to backfire than OTLs. In at least some ways, in strengthening Germany relative to Poland, things may well be worse.
 
I suspect he's referring to the Greek-Turkish population transfer of 1923, which was overseen by the League of Nations and even nabbed its architect a Nobel Peace Prize. It involved about one million Christians leaving Turkey for Greece, and half a million Muslims leaving Greece for Turkey (religion was the only determining factor, rather than language spoken or something).

I'm not entirely certain how plausible a German/Polish population transfer is, but I think it's definitely possible, for up to a couple million flowing in each direction - as long as it's a reciprocal deal.

Poland would definitely support such a move (they were desperate for more Poles and less of everyone else); Germany...probably less enthusiastic, but who knows.


If it requires any kind of reciprocal deal then it is ASB. Germany wasn't even reconciled to losing the Polish-speaking areas, much less the German.

The Greek-Turkish case isn't relevant here. The people of Anatolia and the Balkans were viewed as, at best, semi-civilised, so that nothing better could be expected of them. But both Germans and Poles were real Europeans - real white people, not just "off-white" like Greeks or Turks. No one at the Paris Peace Conference would even have thought it.

Incidentally, how would it have worked in places like Allenstein and Marienwerder, which had quite a few Polish-speakers, yet voted overwhelmingly to stay in Germany. Who would have been counted as a Pole and who as a German?
 
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