WI: Vercingetorix defeats Caesar

[rldragon]

So, the premise is this.

In 52 BC, at the Battle of Alesia, Caesar defeated the allied Gallic forces under the command of Vercingetorix, and more or less ensured the conquest of Gaul.

In this case, Caesar is defeated and gets killed/captured. The Gauls still have a strong leader who can unify them, and now the Legions in Gaul are stuck in a very unfavorable position.

What are the consequences, both short-term and long-term?

 

[twovultures]

In the short term, I don't think Vercingetorix is going to push the Romans out of Gaul entirely. There are still several tribes who are allied with and will fight alongside the Romans. The Roman conquest may be stopped, but the Romans will probably keep a toehold in Provence.

Vercingetorix could unify the Gaulish tribes, but whether or not he will is another matter entirely. Getting the other chiefs to accept him as their king will not be easy. With such a major victory under his belt and the promise of loot from the Romans, he may be able to get enough men to accept him as leader to beat anyone who opposes him into submission but ultimately he's going to have to make a lot of right decisions and get very lucky to not only get the throne but to avoid getting assassinated by his own people.

 

[Berserker]

On the next day, October 2, Vercassivellaunus, a cousin of Vercingetorix, launched a massive attack with 60,000 men, focusing on a weakness in the Roman fortifications (the circle in the figure) which Caesar had tried to hide, but had been discovered by the Gauls. The area in question was a zone with natural obstructions where a continuous wall could not be constructed. The attack was made in combination with Vercingetorix's forces who pressed from every angle of the inner fortification. Caesar trusted the discipline and courage of his men and sent out orders to simply hold the lines. He personally rode throughout the perimeter cheering his legionaries. Labienus' cavalry was sent to support the defense of the area where the fortification breach was located. With pressure increasing, Caesar was forced to counter-attack the inner offensive and managed to push back Vercingetorix's men. By this time the section held by Labienus was on the verge of collapse. Caesar decided on a desperate measure and took 13 cavalry cohorts (about 6,000 men) to attack the relief army of 60,000 from the rear. This action surprised both attackers and defenders. Seeing their leader undergoing such risk, Labienus' men redoubled their efforts and the Gauls soon panicked and tried to retreat. As in other examples of ancient warfare, the disarrayed retreating army was easy prey for the disciplined Roman pursuit. The retreating Gauls were slaughtered, and Caesar in his Commentaries remarks that only the pure exhaustion of his men saved the Gauls from complete annihilation.

Finish Caesar somwhere right about then and the Romans might get wrecked.

the Gauls still have major losses, but the Senate is freed from their burden

will Vercingetorix be up to the task to unite the Gauls? I dont know: the Gauls just didnt see themselves as one people (calling a averni a carnutian might resemble something like calling men from the dutch province of zeeland flemmish)

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Finish Caesar somwhere right about then and the Romans might get wrecked.

the Gauls still have major losses, but the Senate is freed from their burden

will Vercingetorix be up to the task to unite the Gauls? I dont know: the Gauls just didnt see themselves as one people (calling a averni a carnutian might resemble something like calling men from the dutch province of zeeland flemmish)

Thanks for the quote. It makes a celtic victory look quite believable. I hadnt been sure it was.

 

[Magnum]

I remeber this was the premise with which I started a new list of monarch in the original thread (I think). Look where that lead to !

 

[Berserker]

Thanks for the quote. It makes a celtic victory look quite believable. I hadnt been sure it was.

Makes it the more fun to have Vercingetorix"s cousin present him Caesars head on a silver plate

 

[High Plains Drifter]

The Roman People and Senate will require vengance. Caesar was popular and even with the large number of Senators who hated him, he is too prominent to go unavenged.

Who leads the next round of legions into Gaul?

Crassus is dead a year.

After the death of Julia two years earlier, Pompey has fallen out with Caesar and begun moving back to the Optimates by marrying the daughter of one of the Scipios (Optimates side).

Of course the Optimates don't really like Pompey that much either, but felt they needed him to counter Caesar.


Do the Optimates encourage Pompey to go to Gaul and hope he meets the same fate as Caesar?

Or do the Optimates fear to send Pompey, because if he is successful there will be no counter to him being First Man of Rome?


Is Mark Antony alive? He certainly was in Gaul for parts of the Gallic Wars. If living, he might be a possibility to lead the Roman counter-campaign. Popular with the people, some proof of military competency, closest male relative to Caesar, might draw the support of Caesar's allies. But he is young, at 32, for this kind of leadership. I don't see the Senate wanting to allow the possibility of a new Caesar to arise.


Pompey is Senior Consul in 52 BC. He will make the decision of who leads the campaign in 51 BC against Gaul. I see Pompey nominating himself. He would like the idea of succeding in Gaul where Caesar had failed.

 

[Xgentis]

Was Caesar conquest of Gaul even ordored by the senate?

 

[Archdevil]

Was Caesar conquest of Gaul even ordored by the senate?

Hell no.

Actually, they debated trying him for warcrimes for his actions in Gaul, but he wars to popular and judicially inviolable as a provincial governor.

 

[Berserker]

Hell no.

Actually, they debated trying him for warcrimes for his actions in Gaul, but he wars to popular and judicially inviolable as a provincial governor.

then why should the allow pompey to head into Gaul??

Is Mark Antony alive? He certainly was in Gaul for parts of the Gallic Wars. If living, he might be a possibility to lead the Roman counter-campaign. Popular with the people, some proof of military competency, closest male relative to Caesar, might draw the support of Caesar's allies. But he is young, at 32, for this kind of leadership. I don't see the Senate wanting to allow the possibility of a new Caesar to arise.

iff he made it out alive, he must have a very good horse

 

[Archdevil]

then why should the allow pompey to head into Gaul??

Roman honor is at stake. That would count very heavily.

 

[Flubber]

The Gauls still have a strong leader who can unify them...

No they don't.

They have a war leader who had managed to put together a force whose size waxes and wanes depending on the whims of the various tribes and bands within it. A war leader who managed to get bottled up in Alesia too.

After a victory, Vercingetorix's "army" is more likely to melt away than anything else.

You're presuming the Celts have the same level of political development the Romans had or that we have today. They don't. There is no permanent political structures beyond the tribal level and no allegiances beyond those temporarily created by marriage, tribute, or charisma.

Vercingetorix isn't going to suddenly found a capital, mint currency, publish laws, or any of the rest. There is a Celtic nation, but there's nothing resembling a Celtic state. You're basically looking at current day Somalia, but that's okay because most of the world was at or below that level of political development during this period too.

Vercingetorix accomplishments won't last much beyond his death and, because his accomplishments make him a target for Celt and Roman alike, his death will be right around the corner.

 

[KnightofTempest]

The Roman People and Senate will require vengance. Caesar was popular and even with the large number of Senators who hated him, he is too prominent to go unavenged.
QUOTE]
^this Caesar may not have been particularly well liked by the Senate, but he was still a Roman and by Jupiter if those bloody gauls think they can push Romans around and kill them willy nilly, then they've got another thing coming.

 

[twovultures]

^this Caesar may not have been particularly well liked by the Senate, but he was still a Roman and by Jupiter if those bloody gauls think they can push Romans around and kill them willy nilly, then they've got another thing coming.

Oddly enough, repeat invasions may save Vercingetorix's life. If the Romans invade before assassination attempts by rival tribal leaders take his life, the Gauls will probably rally around him again if only because he now has a proven track record. IF he gets lucky enough to defeat the Romans a second or even third time, he may gain enough followers and respect to actually be able to create a kingdom, or at least a hegemony.

 

[KnightofTempest]

Also how does he defeat caesar in the first place? Alesia is too late he needs to keep his army in the field and not get encircled by Roman siege works. All this matters in the context of how Vercengetorix keeps power, assuming he doesn't get assassinated. If say, he defeats the romans in a pitched battle ala Cannae it would show the the Gauls, but more importantly the Romans, that he's as capable a Strategist and Leader as some of the Best in Recent Memory. Not to mention that it would get the Romans to take him seriously and send a larger force to Gaul (even though they'll be sending one anyway) If he can pull this stunt on the Legions again, then the Gauls will rally around him. If he holes up in a hillfort and tries to break the Romans on walls, then he says to the other tribal leaders that he's a coward, even if the Romans lose in this scenario, the Gauls won't follow someone who hid behind a wall.

 

[Alex1guy]

Oddly enough, repeat invasions may save Vercingetorix's life. If the Romans invade before assassination attempts by rival tribal leaders take his life, the Gauls will probably rally around him again if only because he now has a proven track record. IF he gets lucky enough to defeat the Romans a second or even third time, he may gain enough followers and respect to actually be able to create a kingdom, or at least a hegemony.

I seriously doubt he could pull the wool over the Romans more than once, and live to tell the tale. Remember there is the racial memory of the gauls sacking Rome in play and they are not going to let them unify to any great extent. Also, vercengetorix was a Warlord, that doesn't make him a good King or ruler. As Flubber said, I don't think he'll last long.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Also how does he defeat caesar in the first place? Alesia is too late he needs to keep his army in the field and not get encircled by Roman siege works. All this matters in the context of how Vercengetorix keeps power, assuming he doesn't get assassinated. If say, he defeats the romans in a pitched battle ala Cannae it would show the the Gauls, but more importantly the Romans, that he's as capable a Strategist and Leader as some of the Best in Recent Memory. Not to mention that it would get the Romans to take him seriously and send a larger force to Gaul (even though they'll be sending one anyway) If he can pull this stunt on the Legions again, then the Gauls will rally around him. If he holes up in a hillfort and tries to break the Romans on walls, then he says to the other tribal leaders that he's a coward, even if the Romans lose in this scenario, the Gauls won't follow someone who hid behind a wall.

If they managed a breakout at Alesia, that might drag things out longer at least.