WI: Vasa did not sink in 1628

Gustav II Adolf has been described as a "keen artillerist" and wanted to make a ship that would be an artillery platform. Due to several factors, with a major one being a poor understanding of theoretical principles of shipbuilding, the Vasa sunk on its maiden voyage in 1628.

I understand that, in a lot of cases, a single ship may not change the course of events much, but what if the Vasa did not sink?
 
Gustav II Adolf has been described as a "keen artillerist" and wanted to make a ship that would be an artillery platform. Due to several factors, with a major one being a poor understanding of theoretical principles of shipbuilding, the Vasa sunk on its maiden voyage in 1628.

I understand that, in a lot of cases, a single ship may not change the course of events much, but what if the Vasa did not sink?

Well first off the top of my head I would say that Gustav might choose to make more ships along her lines as she was sort off a prototype for the fleet.Larger Swedish navy for any war that would arise .Sweden might be able to defeat Denmark sometime before the Great Northern war and thus stand a better chance of holding onto Finland and perhaps some of todays Baltic Republics .
And this would not exist
vasa.jpg
Also for the ship to not sink she would need to be quite a bit wider and thus more stable so you need a POD before her commissioning to make that happen .

vasa.jpg
 
Two things I noticed in reading from what resources that I have available:
1.) The initial design was based off of a French warship, Galion de Guise.
2.) Gustav II Adolf pushed for extensive changes throughout the project.

The original shipwright, a Dutchman named Henrik Hybertsson, did not live long enough to see the ship launched and, in my opinion, that may not have helped matters either. However, Arendt de Groote (who worked with "Master Henrik") noted that it was based off if the French warship, Galion de Guise.

Galion de Guise was also a two decker ship and, despite the ship being quite smaller, carried 58 guns during the time of her sinking in 1642. To compare, Vasa carried 64 guns at the time of her maiden voyage and subsequent sinking.

From what I understand, none of Gustav's subordinates were willing to speak up about the ship's problems in OTL. That leads me to my next inquiry: who, besides Oxenstierna, would be most likely to speak up about the structural issues and possibly postponing the maiden voyage?
 

Driftless

Donor
Wasn't one of the contributing issues was sailing out of the harbor with the gun ports open and the guns run out on both sides (to impress the natives), and when the ship leaned over in the breeze, water poured in through the gun ports too fast to recover? Or am I conflating that with the Mary Rose?
 
Wasn't one of the contributing issues was sailing out of the harbor with the gun ports open and the guns run out on both sides (to impress the natives), and when the ship leaned over in the breeze, water poured in through the gun ports too fast to recover? Or am I conflating that with the Mary Rose?

That was the Rose which had up till then been known as a very fine sailer but had recently competed a major rebuilding which had left her topheavy .
Vasa meanwhile was brand spanking new and sank due to being to topheavy ,insufficient beam and not enough draught .
Basically everything that keeps shipwrights awake at night happened to this ship .
 
Gun ports

That was the Rose which had up till then been known as a very fine sailer but had recently competed a major rebuilding which had left her topheavy .
Vasa meanwhile was brand spanking new and sank due to being to topheavy ,insufficient beam and not enough draught .
Basically everything that keeps shipwrights awake at night happened to this ship .
From what I recall, the Vasa had her gun ports open as well and began to take on water through the lower ones during the incident.
 
Vasa was unstable even without the cannons, so it would have sunk anytime soon. The basic construction was repeated in the following almost identical ship Äpplet, which was just slightly wider, and fully operative for thirty years, until it was scrapped.
 
Yes, the cannons only amounted to a smaller percentage of the overall weight of the ship and I agree that sooner or later it would have sunk.

However, the question still remains: who would have had the fortitude to speak up about the issues with the ship? I know that Gustav II Adolf was set on rebuilding the navy but I am confident that he would listen to reason.
 

Redbeard

Banned
We would not have the Wasa museum, which would be very sad, as the Wasa museum IMHO is one of the most interesting museums on the planet!

For reasons I now don't understand I waited to visit the museum until two years ago, but waouv - what an experience!

I just had to travel a few hours from Copenhagen to Stockholm, but seriously - it would be worth a travel around the globe!

In museums we are used to seeing fragments, images and text - but here it is - the thing itself, almost intact, 1:1 and right in front of you - OVERWHELMING!

PS: The only museum experience I can think of competing was seeing a lot of Van Gogh's paintings on Musee d'Orsay in Paris a few years ago - he might have been crazy - but he shure could paint!
 
Vasa was unstable even without the cannons, so it would have sunk anytime soon. The basic construction was repeated in the following almost identical ship Äpplet, which was just slightly wider, and fully operative for thirty years, until it was scrapped.

Äpplet, IIRC, was about 1.5 m beamier, but basically the same. There was also another sister ship, which I don't recall the name(may have been an earlier Kronan, or maybe Svärdet - it was supposed to evoke one of the symbols of the Swedish monarchy), built to the same specs as Äpplet, which didn't have any stability troubles.

Someone mentioned that Wasa's designer died during construction, and yes it had an effect on Wasa's sinking. He was pushing for widening the ship, but Gustav Adolf was pressuring for putting Wasa in service ASAP - he was counting on her to play a large role in controlling the Baltic(BTW, Gustav's pressure played a part in Hybertsson's death). Hybertsson being alive would also help in curbing some of the overweight that Wasa had.
 
From what I have been able to find Hybertsson got seriously ill and died. I have not been able to find out the disease/condition he died from unfortunately. Do you have a source that stated the stress caused by Gustav's pressuring was a contributing factor to Hybertsson's death?
 

Driftless

Donor
If Vasa did not sink most of the people in Sweden would not have heard about the ship

I remember the raising and saving of the ship was a big archaeological deal in the USA - lots of mainstream news coverage. The recovery literally put archaeology and the associated engineers on the front page of the news. It was an interesting counterpoint to the science news of the Space Race.
 
When the stability test failed, Vasa should have been taken back to drydock and been rebuilt (if possible). The second of the four ordered ships was built OTL (Äpplet), so that leaves much the same except for one more big ship in the fleet. Building the third and fourth means larger expenses than OTL, so there is still the possibility of cancelling those due to lack of funds.

Then what to do with it? :confused: Perhaps getting a slightly better deal with Poland before entering the German war, or having even more success in the Danish war 1643-45.

Or saving New Sweden 1655. :p

Would the thirty years war end 1648 with larger Swedish possessions in Germany with Vasa in the fleet? All of Pomerania and all of Mecklenburg might be nice. :)
 
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Pomerania and Mecklenburg did come to mind as far as newly acquired territories go. But is it plausible for Sweden to get the duchy of Courland in negotiations following the Thirty Years War?
 
From what I have been able to find Hybertsson got seriously ill and died. I have not been able to find out the disease/condition he died from unfortunately. Do you have a source that stated the stress caused by Gustav's pressuring was a contributing factor to Hybertsson's death?

No book source, unfortunately; IIRC the Vasa Museum, in the section dedicated to Vasa's construction either mentions explicitly the stress as a contribution factor for his death or implies it.
 
I would think that it would be a contributing factor. I have looked at various sources about Hybertsson but have not found a date of birth. I would not imagine that he would be beyond his fifties due to some factors: he had four children at the time of his death and started working in the Netherlands back in the 1590's.
 
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