WI: Varyag Grand Duke of Cahokia raids Chichen Itza?

Why not?

The Varyags crossed the continent of Europe in half no time. Portaging over divides and rapids, fully vulnerable to ambushes by the locals. The local Finns and Slaves were numerous - they grew the same plants, herded the same animals, rode horses, had the same metal tools and arms... Varyags united them nevertheless.

Imagine a comparable timeline...

Around 1010: Thorfinn and his 160 souls settle in Vinland as per OTL. They have some quarrels with Skraelings as per OTL. But he manages to resolve them by judicious combination of appeasement, violence and divide-and-rule. The Beothuk leave the small Norse enclave at peace, and the Norse trade iron tools to them. (North American Indians knew metal - the native copper of Lake Superior was traded far and wide - but not smelting.)

1010... 1050: the Norse make several exploring expeditions southwards. They find warmer climate, nuts and hardwoods in New Brunswick and Massachusetts - and they also find numerous Indians growing maize. They also sail up St. Lawrence up to Lachine Rapids like Cartier, and find the same. Some more shiploads of settlers come from Greenland and Iceland to Newfoundland.

1050: Snorri Thorfinnsson and a number of Norse leave the Vinland colony and sail to settle at Hochelaga. Hochelaga becomes a centre of trade in North America - the Viking iron competes against (and to some extent complements) Lake Superior copper. Snorri establishes alliances with the neighbouring tribes. His friends - a few Norse and a few Indians - travel far and wide around Great Lakes and Eastern Woodlands, exploring routes and establishing alliances.

1080: Thorstein Snorresson leads a large war party of several Indian tribes and maybe a few tens of Norsemen (most of the still few Norse settlers of Hochelaga stayed home, as they have trade, ironworking and herds to tend to, and too few Indian apprentices to do it all) past Lakes Ontario and Erie, and reaches and conquers Cahokia. He is proclaimed Grand Duke of Cahokia by his retinue.
The new Grand Duke goes on to lead a number of expeditions in different directions - up Ohio, to Lake Superior, up Missouri, and down to Mexican Gulf. Udel principalities are founded, some by local Indian chiefs who ally with Grand Duke, some by Indian allies in his train, some by his Norse friends and some by Metis.

1110: The new Grand Duke, let´s call him Powhatan Thorsteinsson, acting on the information about the fabulous rich countries around the southern sea, has a number of ships built on Mississippi, and after reaching the Gulf of Mexico again, sails west around the coast. In Veracruz, he hears about the weakening Tollan far inland beyond the mountains, but realizing that his small force would be too vulnerable to ambushes in the long road through mountains and could not haul back all the loot if successful, he decides agains. Instead, he continues east, lands in Yucatan and undertakes the shorter, level-ground march against Chichen Itza.

What next?

How is Powhatan Thorsteinsson getting along with the Althing of Iceland? And how will the Bishop of Skalholt react?
 
I don't think that the Norse in America would possess such a title as "Grand Duke". A title that originated in the Byzantine Empire. Even with the Varyags as bodyguards of the Emperors, Jarl or Konig would be more favouble.

And even an initial population base of 160, they will need further influxes of Norsemen in order to create a viable colony, or else they'll be swallowed up by the more numerous native tribes whom, if they don't kill them all first, would maybe attempt to learn from them their metallurical skills before doing away with them completely.
 
And I know it's another annoying language thing, but Cahokia was a modern name bestowed by the French and named for an unrelated tribe that lived in the region in the 18th Century.

And I agree that so grand a city-state as *Cahokia would have a King, not a mere Grand Duke. Or were you creating an analogue to Kiev, in which a "Grand Prince" (usually thought of as an identical title to GDuke) held sway over the other cities, which were ruled by Princes? A Varyagian Cahokia could very well have a structure similar to the Kievan Rus, since the city was the center of a network of smaller cities.

I really, really don't think they would feel the need or desire to sail to Mexico and face the Maya. Surely the vast, underpopulated interior of North America offers all a Viking could want? And the Maya were undoubtedly a stronger civilization than any Norse-Cahokian merger.

Have you thought about the effects of the Vikings' germs, or their germ-ridden livestock?
 
Even within a large exodus of Norsemen that settles in North America, was a gang of former Varangian Guardsmen, the last thing that they would import there is a foreign taste in nobility titles. And since the nearest Norse country to America is Iceland, then I imagine that that an Althing-like form of government would take shape in Vinland.
 
And even an initial population base of 160, they will need further influxes of Norsemen in order to create a viable colony, or else they'll be swallowed up by the more numerous native tribes whom, if they don't kill them all first, would maybe attempt to learn from them their metallurical skills before doing away with them completely.
Not in Newfoundland. Newfoundland is too far north for maize to thrive (but Norse grains are viable). Learning agriculture from scratch is difficult for the Beothuk whose whole lifestyle is that of hunter-gatherers. Maybe a few Skraeling farmhands and in-laws settling in Norse villages altogether. But a relatively compact farming colony is simply too numerous and hard to exterminate for the sake of a small piece of hunting grounds. The Beothuk are better off learning a taste for bread, and trading with the Norse for it while continuing to hunt and gather. Plus, maintaining iron foundries on the side of hunter-gatherer lifestyle is also somewhat difficult.

Hochelaga will be different. They are already maize growers, so adding barley, rye and oats to their fields would not be a major change in lifestyle - yet it would make their fields far safer from weather fluctuations at the northern edge of maize area, and allow them to expand north. And adding domesticated animals would mean a far more reliable supply of meat.

But the Fenno-Ugrians and Slavs did not kill all Varyags at first, nor later. Yet the Varyags eventually were swallowed up.
I really, really don't think they would feel the need or desire to sail to Mexico and face the Maya. Surely the vast, underpopulated interior of North America offers all a Viking could want?
It did not offer all their subjects and allies would want - because they had been trading with Mexico, and importing ideas such as building mounds/pyramids. The Grand Duke, with his newly imported technology of building big seaworthy ships, would consider demonstrating his prowess to his supporters by going by force to the rich southern countries and claiming by force what they had been trading for.

Have you thought about the effects of the Vikings' germs, or their germ-ridden livestock?

There would be some. Greenland itself did have some epidemics. But I expect that the germs being filtered through several stops at the small islands of Iceland and Greenland would be considerably fewer than those in 16th century when Spaniards sailed right across with far more people than 160.

the last thing that they would import there is a foreign taste in nobility titles. And since the nearest Norse country to America is Iceland, then I imagine that that an Althing-like form of government would take shape in Vinland.

Perhaps in Newfoundland where, almost like in Iceland, it would be easy to define who are and are not in Norse community - settled farmers would attend the Thing and vote, while the Skraeling hunter-gatherers would not. Even then there would be extra practical difficulties of relationship with the Skraelings. How would the Thing inform the Beothuk that a Norseman travelling and trading with them is an outlaw banished from home and therefore fine to kill, rather than a legitimate trader whose killing would cause revenge of the Norse? And there would be the needs to provide for prosecution before the Thing of any Norse who kill or rob friendly Skraelings, to make sure such incidents end with the Norseman outlawed and killed and the Skraeling relatives satisfied, or else with the Norseman condemned to pay wergeld and the Skraelings settled for that - so as to avoid feuding with Skraelings.

In Hochelaga and Cahokia, problems would be far different. Many Skraelings would be living alongside Norse as settled farmers and traders, and many will be slightly further away, as allied tribes. How are they going to define the Thing areas, or vote distribution, or conduct a common foreign policy to keep trade roads open and march on expeditions? Novgorod did have veche. But the Prince of Novgorod had real business to do - and especially so in the early period. I expect that while in Iceland and Greenland, the first settlers´ families - Ingolfur Arnarsson, and Erik the Red - were soon overshadowed by a number of roughly equal chieftains, in Hochelaga and Cahokia there would bean urgent need for powerful executive. He would no doubt consult his druzhina and boyars, and perhaps call a veche for matters of general importance or for conducting trials and advertising the justice of judgment, but the situation generally would favour monarchy.
 
Just MHO, but I think you'd need more than 160 people for a colony to survive a few winters, given the usual mortalities of medieval life-- one good bout of cholera or something and poof.

I mean, one of the probable causes for the Norse settlements' eventual failure was just not being big enough to be self-sustaining, even aside from considerations about the natives.
 
Just MHO, but I think you'd need more than 160 people for a colony to survive a few winters, given the usual mortalities of medieval life-- one good bout of cholera or something and poof.
One good bout of cholera, and the settlement has a bunch of empty farms and cleared fields alongside the survivors. The next ship reports the situation to Greenland, and with next but one ship (the population of Greenland was over a thousand by 1000), a few tens of relatives come to claim inheritances.

A colony of 160 may be precarious in respect to surviving a few centuries, but a few winters is no problem... and it does not remain at 160 for a generation.
 
1. Grand Duke - he probably does't mean Megas Doux but Veliky Knyaz - Grand Prince. I really prefer that translation, Duke just doesn't begin to cover it.

2. As an ASB scenario, I'd always wondered how would early European settlements play out in America - the USA, medieval-style. I want to be Prince of the Okanagan, personally, or even grab something along the Gerogia strait.

3. The trouble with the Slavs (and the Finns) is that both were settled and at least partially agricultural. Morevoer major Slavic groups were in fact already urban, and fully agricultural, and far more numerous than their Variag overlords. The Prince and the City complemented each other in the early stages. Once princes started sponsoring new settlements and mingling boyars and druzhina hopelessly, it became more of a normal feudal arrangement. But you still needed a Novgorod, Kiev or Polotsk to be there to start the ball rolling.

4. Landing anywhere outside Mexico or the Missisipi valley they would find a relatively scattered population with partial dependence on agriculture, and no craftsmen to extract and work their metal (or leatherwork or ships or even traditional cloth) for them. They would have no ready markets to sell their tribute at (the cities grew grains and did crafts; the princes looted, collected tribute and traded at the cities and further afield. It worked.) There's a reason the Variags didn't stick around majorly in Karelia or Perm.

So all in all, there's no ready, advanced population to exploit that could support the European lifestyle in the long term. Presumably, it's European technology and organisation that would give the Variags an edge over the locals.

But if they're working the forges, they're not extorting tribute. If they're extorting but not replenishing their iron equipment, why don't the natives kill them? If they're doing both, there's lots of them, so can the local population support them?

Where do they trade? What's America's equivalent of Constantinople, Visby and Kwarazm? What can they get from the locals to trade there? It has to be something lightweight and valuable. Honey, furs, that kind of thing. And the destination has to want it bad.

Finally, there's the matter of germs and productivity. If the initial contact destroys a lot of the local population, will they be even able to feed themselves and keep on doing what princes do?
 
4. Landing anywhere outside Mexico or the Missisipi valley they would find a relatively scattered population with partial dependence on agriculture, and no craftsmen to extract and work their metal (or leatherwork or ships or even traditional cloth) for them. They would have no ready markets to sell their tribute at (the cities grew grains and did crafts; the princes looted, collected tribute and traded at the cities and further afield. It worked.) There's a reason the Variags didn't stick around majorly in Karelia or Perm.
Another reason was that the volume of trade there was modest AND there was no point in agricultural settlement. The Varyags did settle Faroes, Iceland and Greenland (no natives) as well as Halogaland (the native Lapps were hunter-gatherers). Large-scale agricultural settlement was an option. The reason they did not do this in Finland and Karelia was that the Finns already were farmers with the same plants, animals and technologies. Replacing farmers with other farmers gave little dividend. The Swedes actually DID replace the Finns of Aland and most of the southwestern Finnish coast.
So all in all, there's no ready, advanced population to exploit that could support the European lifestyle in the long term. Presumably, it's European technology and organisation that would give the Variags an edge over the locals.
Including European cultivated plants and domestic animals.
But if they're working the forges, they're not extorting tribute. If they're extorting but not replenishing their iron equipment, why don't the natives kill them? If they're doing both, there's lots of them, so can the local population support them?
If they are working the forges, they can get what the natives produce by honest trade rather than forcible extortion, because the natives will recognize that the iron tools have certain advantages over stone and the expensive Lake Superior copper. And if the Varyags are working the forges, there can very well be more Varyags tending to rye and barley fields and cow and sheep pastures. After all, Iceland and Greenland, with no local population, supported the Varyags and also iron forges for their needs. A Vinland colony living next to Skraeling hunter-gatherers could easily produce iron for their needs, plus some extra to trade to Beothuk and get more hunting produce than they themselves could have hunted for.
Where do they trade? What's America's equivalent of Constantinople, Visby and Kwarazm? What can they get from the locals to trade there? It has to be something lightweight and valuable. Honey, furs, that kind of thing. And the destination has to want it bad.

Cahokia, maybe. What did the OTL Moundbuilders trade for? The Varyags can trade for all the same things.
 
Well, if it's just "Norse-dominated polity in Cahokia" you've got a lot already covered. I was under the impression you wanted a "Variag" lifestyle parrallel to what happened in Rus. That is hard to achieve, not least because of the Druzhina system. Like the true Norse kings' household men, they demanded gifts on an annoyingly regular basis. Gold, weapons, clothes. Land and slaves if especially important. So you can manage land and slaves, but gold requires major expeditions south, while the weapons have to be made in Cahokia proper.

Still, this is a cool idea. I wonder how and what the native "Boyar" class will look like. Clearly it won't be exactly parrallel to the Slavic counterpart, but eventually they'll start integrating the nativs into their druzhina (what's the Norse term for that?).
 
Not in Newfoundland. Newfoundland is too far north for maize to thrive (but Norse grains are viable). Learning agriculture from scratch is difficult for the Beothuk whose whole lifestyle is that of hunter-gatherers. Maybe a few Skraeling farmhands and in-laws settling in Norse villages altogether. But a relatively compact farming colony is simply too numerous and hard to exterminate for the sake of a small piece of hunting grounds. The Beothuk are better off learning a taste for bread, and trading with the Norse for it while continuing to hunt and gather. Plus, maintaining iron foundries on the side of hunter-gatherer lifestyle is also somewhat difficult.

Hochelaga will be different. They are already maize growers, so adding barley, rye and oats to their fields would not be a major change in lifestyle - yet it would make their fields far safer from weather fluctuations at the northern edge of maize area, and allow them to expand north. And adding domesticated animals would mean a far more reliable supply of meat.

FWIW, "Varyag" is not an English word. You'd probably be better off using "Norse". I had no clue what you were talking about until I Googled the word.

The Iroquoians didn't really get started growing maize until ~1300, so no, there isn't a settled agricultural people at Hochelaga at that point.

The mound builders DO have maize, but they don't get that far north. (Ohio valley, not St Laurence)


Are you Ukrainian? (using an East Slavic word for Varyag; supposing you user name is black-something with the Ukrainian 'o' there)
 
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