WI: USS Washington alone at 2nd Guadalcanal?

Imagine the following: USS South Dakota is more badly damaged at Santa Cruz Islands than in real life. Perhaps the torpedo that did in Porter hits her, or she gets struck by more bombs.

This means that, when Vice Admiral Kondo and his force rock up to try and bombard Henderson Field again on the second night of the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, only USS Washington is available for Rear Admiral Lee to stop them.

What happens next? Does Lee go in with just Washington and 4 destroyers, or can he bring extra escorts with him from Enterprise's screen? How does the battle go down? How does it influence the overall Guadalcanal campaign?
 
Pensacola was part of Enterprise's escort group, She could have been included in Lee's command.

Of the survivors limping away from First Guadalcanal, Helena was lightly damaged; perhaps she could have bee included as well.

Tactically/historically, when the destroyers were torpedoed, Washington maneuvered to port, keeping the burning destroyers between her and the Japanese. South Dakota maneuvered to starboard, silhouetting herself as she was between the burning destroyers and the Japanese. I would think Washington would still be able to approach Kirishima, and will achieve the mission kill of Kondo's mission even without South Dakota's distraction.

My thoughts,
 
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Tactically/historically, when the destroyers were torpedoed, Washington maneuvered to port, keeping the burning destroyers between her and the Japanese. South Dakota maneuvered to starboard, silhouetting herself as she was between the burning destroyers and the Japanese.

Yes the burning destroyers can still screen the Washington. Conversely the Washington does not cease fire for a couple minutes out of the location of the SD moving between the Washington & enemy. If nothing causes the Washington to cease fire then the Japanese may not lose its location & have its gun flashes as a location/aimpoint. There is also the question of where the cruiser is located? Odds are it will be ahead of the Washington rather than astern as the SD was.
 
Yes the burning destroyers can still screen the Washington. Conversely the Washington does not cease fire for a couple minutes out of the location of the SD moving between the Washington & enemy. If nothing causes the Washington to cease fire then the Japanese may not lose its location & have its gun flashes as a location/aimpoint. There is also the question of where the cruiser is located? Odds are it will be ahead of the Washington rather than astern as the SD was.
If it's Pensacola, she might get wrecked if she takes South Dakota's place. Conversely, if the CA is leading, then she might take Washington's place and the BB takes South Dakota's place. Thus Lee takes the brunt of Kirishima's fire - not good for a NC-class.
 
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ShySusan

Gone Fishin'
If it's Pensacola, she might get wrecked if she takes South Dakota's place. Conversely, if the CA is leading, then she might take Washington's place and the BB takes South Dakota's place. Thus Lee takes the brunt of Kirishima's fire - not good for a NC-class.
She should be alright. Kirishima only had 14" guns, which is incidentally what Washington was armored against. She'll undoubtedly take more damage than she did in OTL, but I don't see her getting wrecked either.
 
If it's Pensacola, she might get wrecked.

She should be alright. Kirishima only had 14" guns, which is incidentally what Washington was armored against. She'll undoubtedly take more damage than she did in OTL, but I don't see her getting wrecked either.
But what about Atago and Takao? They're well armed and have lots of torps. If they get their sights on Cola, like they did for SoDak, they're going to shred her.

Also, can Washington withstand 14-inch fire at the circa 10,000 yard range that they historically fought in? Her Y-turret might go up if it takes the barbette hit that SoDak did in real-life, with dire consequences.
 
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ShySusan

Gone Fishin'
Also, can Washington withstand 14-inch fire at the circa 10,000 yard range that they historically fought in? Her Y-turret might go up if it takes the barbette hit that SoDak did in real-life, with dire consequences.
The barbettes had 16" of armor, only an inch less than South Dakota. So unless the shell penetrated all but the last inch, she should be fine
 
The barbettes had 16" of armor, only an inch less than South Dakota. So unless the shell penetrated all but the last inch, she should be fine
Ok - good to know. But if Pensacola is getting mauled in this scenario by the heavy cruisers, what would Lee do to intervene? Would he still target Kirishima first or have to deal with 3 targets at once?

I have also just realised: San Diego was part of TF 16 at the time. If she'd been there to support the destroyers, perhaps they'd have done better? It's only been 24 hours since 1st Guadalcanal so I don't think the USN will figure out straight away that the Atlanta-class aren't meant for surface actions. Northampton can stay behind to cover Enterprise with AA.
 
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ShySusan

Gone Fishin'
Ok - good to know. But if Pensacola is getting mauled in this scenario by the heavy cruisers, what would Lee do to intervene? Would he still target Kirishima first or have to deal with 3 targets at once?
I don't see why he wouldn't. Kirishima is the only ship in the enemy force that can win the battle for the Japanese. She's the biggest threat and the one that needs to be neutralized. You don't want to let a capital ship have gunnery practice with you as the target. The other ships can cause damage, but they can't sink you. Kirishima can.
 
Yes the burning destroyers can still screen the Washington. Conversely the Washington does not cease fire for a couple minutes out of the location of the SD moving between the Washington & enemy. If nothing causes the Washington to cease fire then the Japanese may not lose its location & have its gun flashes as a location/aimpoint. There is also the question of where the cruiser is located? Odds are it will be ahead of the Washington rather than astern as the SD was.
If I'm remembering the sequence of events right, the Japanese can aim at the gunflashes all they want, with Kirishima shanked they'd be reliant on cruiser torpedoes and given the OTL results that's not a winning proposition.

If it's Pensacola, she might get wrecked if she takes South Dakota's place. Conversely, if the CA is leading, then she might take Washington's place and the BB takes South Dakota's place. Thus Lee takes the brunt of Kirishima's fire - not good for a NC-class.
That depends on what the cruiser does; if she goes behind the destroyers like Washington does (and either Pensacola or Northampton are more likely to do so than the green-as-grass South Dakota) she'll likely not draw all that fire.

Ok - good to know. But if Pensacola is getting mauled in this scenario by the heavy cruisers, what would Lee do to intervene? Would he still target Kirishima first or have to deal with 3 targets at once?

I have also just realised: San Diego was part of TF 16 at the time. If she'd been there to support the destroyers, perhaps they'd have done better? It's only been 24 hours since 1st Guadalcanal so I don't think the USN will figure out straight away that the Atlanta-class aren't meant for surface actions. Northampton can stay behind to cover Enterprise with AA.
Washington only targeted Kirishima with her main battery; the 5" secondaries spent their time keeping the CAs honest.

San Diego is not going to join the task force. The US Navy already knew the Atlantas weren't good surface combatants, the only reason Atlanta and Juneau were in the previous night's action at all was because they were part of the two convoy screens that got thrown together to form the American task force.
 
If I'm remembering the sequence of events right, the Japanese can aim at the gunflashes all they want, with Kirishima shanked they'd be reliant on cruiser torpedoes and given the OTL results that's not a winning proposition.


That depends on what the cruiser does; if she goes behind the destroyers like Washington does (and either Pensacola or Northampton are more likely to do so than the green-as-grass South Dakota) she'll likely not draw all that fire.


Washington only targeted Kirishima with her main battery; the 5" secondaries spent their time keeping the CAs honest.

San Diego is not going to join the task force. The US Navy already knew the Atlantas weren't good surface combatants, the only reason Atlanta and Juneau were in the previous night's action at all was because they were part of the two convoy screens that got thrown together to form the American task force.
Oh, I didn't know that about San Diego. Thanks for the info.

Regarding Washington; I don't think that statement is entirely true, because Kirishima was demonstrated to have taken 5-inch hits from some of the American battleship's guns. If, hypothetically, the lightly armoured and older Pensacola goes in front of Washington and gets in South Dakota's position, being mainly hit by two powerful heavy cruisers - Kirishima did not land that many hits on South Dakota historically - she's going to take far more damage. In that case, since the USN is already running short of heavy cruisers, I think that Lee would choose to get rid of those threats first. This has the added benefit of potentially killing Vice Admiral Kondo and thus decapitating the Japanese command structure.

Now, if Washington does lead and Pensacola follows her, with both going behind the destroyers, then there isn't going to be the distraction factor that caused Kirishima to miss Washington in real life. Both big American ships are in one place, rather than on two separate headings. So more firepower can be brought to bear on the two, meaning that Washington may take more damage - this being a close-range brawl. As such, she may be slowed down sufficiently for the Long Lances to do her in. Unlikely, and even unlikelier that Kirishima survives and can carry out the bombardment mission, but possible nevertheless.
 
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The barbettes had 16" of armor, only an inch less than South Dakota. So unless the shell penetrated all but the last inch, she should be fine
About the barbette hit:


36. An estimated 14-inch projectile passed through both sides of the coaming of hatch 1-128 and detonated upon hitting the barbette of Turret III at frame 123-1/2 about 17 inches from the top. The 17.3-inch armor was gouged to a depth of about 1-1/2 inches over an area 15 inches in diameter. Surface cracks covered this area and vertical cracks developed in the armor to a distance of 8 feet aft of the point of impact. The blast blew a hole in the main deck 3 feet wide extending around the barbette for a distance of 10 feet. Around this hole the main deck was dished down out to 8 feet from the barbette between frames 121 and 130. Some fragments were deflected down and aft riddling the starboard side of bulkhead 129 in numerous places between the main and second decks including one hole 26 inches by 35 inches. Some of the fragments continued on through C-204-L piercing the equipment in the crew's messing space and penetrating watertight door 2-136-1 in two places and bulkhead 136 in one place. In C-201-L on the starboard side of the barbette considerable damage was done to equipment, mess tables, and ventilation ducts. The armored second deck defeated all fragments. Fragments and blast deflected upward from the point of impact demolished the gas seal and water shed for 30 feet around the circumference of the barbette, gouged the gun sleeves of the right and center guns of Turret III and ignited the gun bloomers. Some difficulty was experienced in training the turret after the hit but it was believed that the turret was still able to fire. Fragments ranging aft on the main deck damaged 20mm guns, ready service boxes, gun shields, starboard catapult, and fire plug 1-133-2. Other fragments spreading forward pierced the superstructure on the main and first superstructure deck levels.

So probably no major damage done to Washington either. Where else can the Japanese battleship damage her meaningfully, then?
 

ShySusan

Gone Fishin'
So probably no major damage done to Washington either. Where else can the Japanese battleship damage her meaningfully, then?
They could wreck the superstructure and at 10,000 yards they should have been able to penetrate the belt. Why they didn't I don't know.
 
They could wreck the superstructure and at 10,000 yards they should have been able to penetrate the belt. Why they didn't I don't know.
That is actually interesting, because then they could take out Washington's fire control radar, with potentially MASSIVE consequences for the rest of the battle (although possibly mitigated by the close-ranged nature of the fight - optical systems may do). If that did happen, how could the IJN pull off a tactical, if not strategic, victory with the forces available? (1 fast battleship, 2 heavy cruisers, 2 light cruisers, 8 destroyers vs 1 fast battleship, 1 heavy cruiser, 4 destroyers).

Even so, I don't think it very likely that Kirishima can win this one, which begs the second question - which other IJN battleship would you feasibly send in her place? Is Mutsu available (IIRC she was at Eastern Solomons, so she's possibly still in theatre). If the Ise-class hadn't been wasted on half-assed carrier conversions, perhaps they could have been present and used instead.
 

McPherson

Banned
Imagine the following: USS South Dakota is more badly damaged at Santa Cruz Islands than in real life. Perhaps the torpedo that did in Porter hits her, or she gets struck by more bombs.

This means that, when Vice Admiral Kondo and his force rock up to try and bombard Henderson Field again on the second night of the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, only USS Washington is available for Rear Admiral Lee to stop them.

What happens next? Does Lee go in with just Washington and 4 destroyers, or can he bring extra escorts with him from Enterprise's screen? How does the battle go down? How does it influence the overall Guadalcanal campaign?
The Japanese are SCREWED. The USS South Dakota was a distraction.
If it's Pensacola, she might get wrecked if she takes South Dakota's place. Conversely, if the CA is leading, then she might take Washington's place and the BB takes South Dakota's place. Thus Lee takes the brunt of Kirishima's fire - not good for a NC-class.
How? First. Japanese shooting was terrible. Second. Japanese battleship and cruiser ammunition was in the first few salvoes designed for anti-surface land target application and was a conversion of Sanshiki anti-aircraft shells? US cruiser armor was proof against this crap. The AP comes later.
But what about Atago and Takao? They're well armed and have lots of torps. If they get their sights on Cola, like they did for SoDak, they're going to shred her.
They, the cruisers, hit with nothing from their torpedo batteries when they aimed at the Washington, and their shell-fire mostly bounced. Not one shell penetrated the citadel on SoDak. Not one.
Also, can Washington withstand 14-inch fire at the circa 10,000 yard range that they historically fought in? Her Y-turret might go up if it takes the barbette hit that SoDak did in real-life, with dire consequences.
Yes, she will survive. That Japanese 35.6 cm shell BOUNCED off the Gunhouse roof. The barbette hit? About that barbette hit?

When everything listed above is considered for Hit 26, the only projectile that fits all of the available evidence is the 14-inch Type 1 AP shell. This hit represents the only time in US Naval History that a US battleship was struck by a foreign battleship's main-caliber AP projectile and in this case South Dakota and her designers won the age-old contest between shell and armor. 79
Bethlehem Steel 1, Mitsubishi Foundry 0.
Ok - good to know. But if Pensacola is getting mauled in this scenario by the heavy cruisers, what would Lee do to intervene? Would he still target Kirishima first or have to deal with 3 targets at once?
What happened to Hiei in her duel with USS San Francisco? NTG for Hiei. So let me be clear... A US battleship after it dispatches Kirishima in 9 salvoes will have a field day with the Japanese cruisers, because IT DID. They fled when they had their chance against USS Washington. They fled.
I have also just realised: San Diego was part of TF 16 at the time. If she'd been there to support the destroyers, perhaps they'd have done better? It's only been 24 hours since 1st Guadalcanal so I don't think the USN will figure out straight away that the Atlanta-class aren't meant for surface actions. Northampton can stay behind to cover Enterprise with AA.
Don't know about that. I do know that USS Juneau and USS Atlanta shredded the upper works of Hiei and degraded her. So I reject the thesis that the IJN could have flipped the result based on the historical evidence, by simply having the USS South Dakota replaced by the USS Pensacola.
 
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The Japanese are SCREWED. The USS South Dakota was a distraction.

How? First. Japanese shooting was terrible. Second. Japanese battleship and cruiser ammunition was in the main designed for anti-surface land target application and was a conversion of Sanshiki anti-aircraft shells? US cruiser armor was proof against this crap.

They hit with nothing from their torpedo batteries and their shell-fire mostly bounced. Not one shell penetrated the citadel. Not one.

Yes.

What happened to Hiei in her duel with USS San Francisco? NTG for Hiei. So let me be clear... A US battleship after it dispatches Kirishima in 9 salvoes will have a field day with the Japanese cruisers, because IT DID. They fled when they had their chance against USS Washington. They fled.

Don't know about that. I do know that USS Juneau and USS Atlanta shredded the upper works of Hiei and degraded her. So I reject the thesis that the IJN could have flipped the result based on the historical evidence, by simply having the USS South Dakota replaced by the USS Pensacola.
You can't compare one of the newest and toughest treaty BBs in the world with the oldest CA in the USN - one that is underarmoured and top-heavy to boot. Shots that did little damage to South Dakota are going to do far more damage to Pensacola, and thus force Lee's hand.

Also, Japanese ships had dedicated AP ammunition. They'd only loaded the bombardment shells at 1st and 2nd Guadalcanal because that's what they were there to do. It is true that these were less than ideal for anti-ship work, but they could - and did - switch out to better shells.

Also also, if there is only one US BB, the IJN CAs may be more aggressive - especially without the fear factor of having Kirishima jumped and murdered. There are also two light cruisers and seven destroyers with Long Lances to help out.

There is the potential for this to go very differently.
 

McPherson

Banned
You can't compare one of the newest and toughest treaty BBs in the world with the oldest CA in the USN - one that is underarmoured and top-heavy to boot. Shots that did little damage to South Dakota are going to do far more damage to Pensacola, and thus force Lee's hand.

Also, Japanese ships had dedicated AP ammunition. They'd only loaded the bombardment shells at 1st and 2nd Guadalcanal because that's what they were there to do. It is true that these were less than ideal for anti-ship work, but they could - and did - switch out to better shells.

Also also, if there is only one US BB, the IJN CAs may be more aggressive - especially without the fear factor of having Kirishima jumped and murdered. There are also two light cruisers and seven destroyers with Long Lances to help out.

There is the potential for this to go very differently.


Read this. Naturally, based on that post action battle damage assessment, I absolutely reject your conjectures about US treaty cruisers. Your other conjectures fly in the face of what actually historically happened at Second Guadalcanal, when the conditions you want to state, occurred de facto. Kondo RAN. Lee held the anchorage.
 
Read this. Naturally, based on that post action battle damage assessment, I absolutely reject your conjectures about US treaty cruisers. Your other conjectures fly in the face of what actually historically happened at Second Guadalcanal, when the conditions you want to state, occurred de facto. Kondo RAN. Lee held the anchorage.
I have just read this, and I admit that Pensacola could probably have taken more damage than I give her credit for. However, I'd point this out:

During the engagement outlined above, SAN FRANCISCO sustained approximately 45 separate hits, plus numerous small machine gun or fragment hits. The most extensive damage was apparently done by the secondary (6") battery of the second battleship in the center group. One 14" hit was made by this battleship and one was apparently made by the battleship in the northern group, its angle of fall being about 13° from about 120° relative. The caliber of these two shells was determined by fragments recovered. Several hits made on the port side (Plates II and III) indicated shells heavier than 6" and these were probably from the heavy cruiser shown in the left group. The destroyer which passed down the port side probably made a few 5" hits and some small caliber hits with automatic weapons. Judging from the performance of our own projectiles against various weights of plating, and from the disposition and armament of the forces involved, it is estimated that 10 hits were 8", 15 were 6", 5 were 5 1/2", and 13 were 5" in addition to the two 14" hits mentioned above. Structural damage from these hits, though extensive, was fortunately not of a serious nature. It would undoubtedly have been more severe if it were not for the fact that special bombardment ammunition was used as stated in paragraph 4. No A.P. or H.E. major caliber hits were received so far as can be determined. Minor caliber hits were apparently common projectiles with both instantaneous and delayed fuses.

Even the USN, masters of DC that they were, admitted that San Francisco could have been more damaged if the IJN had been shooting proper AP shells - which, under Kondo's direction, they might have time to load. Add to this the fact that the New Orleans-class are newer, more compact and tougher than the Pensacola-class. The latter will probably stand up, but she'll still take severe damage if a battleship and two heavy cruisers all decide to shoot at her.

Also, what I really want to specify is this: suppose that Pensacola, being a more experienced ship, follows Washington in the line of battle. Thus the Japanese will be able to track both American ships as there is no distraction from South Dakota moving in front of the destroyers. In that scenario, if Admiral Kondo saw a battleship and heavy cruiser, he'd undoubtedly order all his ships to engage them, thus preventing the radar-guided sneak attack that Lee managed in OTL. So a more effective Japanese response is very likely, especially regarding torpdoes (two targets in line - see Tassafaronga)
 

McPherson

Banned
I have just read this, and I admit that Pensacola could probably have taken more damage than I give her credit for. However, I'd point this out:

During the engagement outlined above, SAN FRANCISCO sustained approximately 45 separate hits, plus numerous small machine gun or fragment hits. The most extensive damage was apparently done by the secondary (6") battery of the second battleship in the center group. One 14" hit was made by this battleship and one was apparently made by the battleship in the northern group, its angle of fall being about 13° from about 120° relative. The caliber of these two shells was determined by fragments recovered. Several hits made on the port side (Plates II and III) indicated shells heavier than 6" and these were probably from the heavy cruiser shown in the left group. The destroyer which passed down the port side probably made a few 5" hits and some small caliber hits with automatic weapons. Judging from the performance of our own projectiles against various weights of plating, and from the disposition and armament of the forces involved, it is estimated that 10 hits were 8", 15 were 6", 5 were 5 1/2", and 13 were 5" in addition to the two 14" hits mentioned above. Structural damage from these hits, though extensive, was fortunately not of a serious nature. It would undoubtedly have been more severe if it were not for the fact that special bombardment ammunition was used as stated in paragraph 4. No A.P. or H.E. major caliber hits were received so far as can be determined. Minor caliber hits were apparently common projectiles with both instantaneous and delayed fuses.

Even the USN, masters of DC that they were, admitted that San Francisco could have been more damaged if the IJN had been shooting proper AP shells - which, under Kondo's direction, they might have time to load. Add to this the fact that the New Orleans-class are newer, more compact and tougher than the Pensacola-class. The latter will probably stand up, but she'll still take severe damage if a battleship and two heavy cruisers all decide to shoot at her.

Also, what I really want to specify is this: suppose that Pensacola, being a more experienced ship, follows Washington in the line of battle. Thus the Japanese will be able to track both American ships as there is no distraction from South Dakota moving in front of the destroyers. In that scenario, if Admiral Kondo saw a battleship and heavy cruiser, he'd undoubtedly order all his ships to engage them, thus preventing the radar-guided sneak attack that Lee managed in OTL. So a more effective Japanese response is very likely, especially regarding torpdoes (two targets in line - see Tassafaronga)
What one desires and what the evidence shows is often quite different. I have to go with the evidence.

Kondo's ships cannot SEE in the dark with their fire control unless they searchlight. Radar equipped Americans "could". So if Kirishima lights up with her searchlights, as she did, she will be shot to bits and that will be quick: about 8 minutes if I remember properly. Call it a reverse Matapan, because that would be what it turns into.

battmap.gif


Graphic Firing Table: Decisive Battles: Second Naval ...

See the battlespace, note the separation of Japanese forces, and the results?
 
Even so, I don't think it very likely that Kirishima can win this one, which begs the second question - which other IJN battleship would you feasibly send in her place? Is Mutsu available (IIRC she was at Eastern Solomons, so she's possibly still in theatre). If the Ise-class hadn't been wasted on half-assed carrier conversions, perhaps they could have been present and used instead.
None. Kongo and Haruna were needed for carrier escort. The only other BBs present at Truk were the fuel-guzzling Yamato and the slow Mutsu, and in fact Kondo drained their tanks for extra fuel.

In any case, even Yamato would’ve died under Washington’s guns at that range.
 
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