WI USS Saratoga took part in the Battle of Midway.

How much different would the Battle of Midway be if the USS Saratoga was able to participate.

The POD being she wasn't torpedoed by Japanese submarine I6 while heading towards a rendezvous with USS Enterprise in January 1942.
 
How much different would the Battle of Midway be if the USS Saratoga was able to participate.

The POD being she wasn't torpedoed by Japanese submarine I6 while heading towards a rendezvous with USS Enterprise in January 1942.

You can still have her get torpedoed. OTL she came close to making to Hawaii on time as is and if they had speeded up her departure from California by a few days she probably can make it. Four carries for the US and it is likely Japan loses all four carriers before than can launch a reply. Or the scout from Chikuma that overflew TF-16 at around 0630 hours but could not see through the clouds ends up seeing Saratoga and the Japanese act faster. Or maybe a submarine pops her.

Any number of things can happen, it likely means the Japanese get rolled up earlier.
 

nbcman

Donor
How much different would the Battle of Midway be if the USS Saratoga was able to participate.

The POD being she wasn't torpedoed by Japanese submarine I6 while heading towards a rendezvous with USS Enterprise in January 1942.
Butterflies would be flapping earlier than that. TF11 would have 2 CVs (Saratoga and Lexington) heading to the Battle of the Coral Sea. Which would lead to stronger airstrike against the IJN CVs possibly sinking Shokaku instead of damaging her plus increasing the CAP over the US CVs which could eliminate the single hit on Yorktown. So there could be four undamaged CVs opposing the IJN 4 CVs at Midway. Then the IJN would be in very bad shape with only a single fleet CV and two slow CV conversions to oppose a stronger USN in the battles around the Solomons.
 
Butterflies would be flapping earlier than that. TF11 would have 2 CVs (Saratoga and Lexington) heading to the Battle of the Coral Sea. Which would lead to stronger airstrike against the IJN CVs possibly sinking Shokaku instead of damaging her plus increasing the CAP over the US CVs which could eliminate the single hit on Yorktown. So there could be four undamaged CVs opposing the IJN 4 CVs at Midway. Then the IJN would be in very bad shape with only a single fleet CV and two slow CV conversions to oppose a stronger USN in the battles around the Solomons.

US carrier doctrine didn't adopt multi-carrier TFs until later so I doubt that the Saratoga gets sent south with the Lexington in the same TF. That being said giving Nimitz an extra CV in the beginning of the Pacific war would be very interesting.
 

nbcman

Donor
US carrier doctrine didn't adopt multi-carrier TFs until later so I doubt that the Saratoga gets sent south with the Lexington in the same TF. That being said giving Nimitz an extra CV in the beginning of the Pacific war would be very interesting.
Were there enough escorts available in Pearl to have two separate CV TFs in addition to the the other 2 CV TFs of OTL? I doubt that Sara would be left behind when all USN CVs were heading for the Coral Sea.
 
Were there enough escorts available in Pearl to have two separate CV TFs in addition to the the other 2 CV TFs of OTL? I doubt that Sara would be left behind when all USN CVs were heading for the Coral Sea.

Perhaps this situation of having to send 2 carriers with the same task force starts the USN using multicarrier task forces earlier.
 
How much different would the Battle of Midway be if the USS Saratoga was able to participate.
It might not happen. The IJN assumes local superiority at Midway, knowing the US will be fielding an additional carrier might get the mission changed.
 

nbcman

Donor
It might not happen. The IJN assumes local superiority at Midway, knowing the US will be fielding an additional carrier might get the mission changed.
Maybe not. The Japanese assumed that the USN had 2-3 Fleet CVs and 2-3 Auxiliary CVs (per IJN parlance, converted passenger ships similar to Junyo) per this Japanese Report.

(d) Of the enemy's carriers, the Ranger was apparently in the Atlantic. According to some prisoners' statements, the Lexington had been sunk. There were others, however, who claimed that she was under repair on the West Coast.

(e) The Enterprise and the Hornet were definitely placed in the Pacific, but we could get no reliable information as to the whereabouts of the Wasp.

(f) About six auxiliary carriers had been completed and there were indications that about half of this number were in the Pacific. However, they were known to be inferior in speed and could not be effectively employed for positive action.

(h) Enemy surface units in the Hawaii area were estimated to be in about the strength noted below. It was likely that these units would sortie in the event of an attack on Midway.

Aircraft Carriers 2 to 3.
Special Carriers 2 to 3.

Note that the USN didn't do any of the planned conversion of cruise ships to CVs as they were more valuable as fast troopships. However, the IJN was overestimating the USN carrier force for Midway already and I don't think that one more USN CV would have stopped the IJN.
 

WILDGEESE

Gone Fishin'
How much different would the Battle of Midway be if the USS Saratoga was able to participate.

The POD being she wasn't torpedoed by Japanese submarine I6 while heading towards a rendezvous with USS Enterprise in January 1942.

Off the top of my head . . . for Midway

She sails with Yorktown . . . while Enterprise & Hornet sail as OTL

Yorktown gets attacked as OTL . . . but so does Saratoga as she's with the Yorktown. Yorktown due to 'modern' damage control (CO2 fire suppression) fights the fires and becomes operational again in a few hours. Saratoga has no modern damage control due to being a reworked battlecruiser and thus succumbs to her injuries later on.

Both Yorktown & Saratoga are thus lost at Midway making the score 4 - 2 to the US . . . not the 4 -1 in OTL
 
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Yorktown gets attacked as OTL . . . but so does Saratoga as she's with the Yorktown. Yorktown due to 'modern' damage control (CO2 fire suppression) fights the fires and becomes operational again in a few hours. Saratoga has no modern damage control due to being a reworked battlecruiser and thus succumbs to her injuries later on.

Eh?
So Sara shows up and adds nothing to the fight? Her Fighters and AAA don't do a thing to the attacking aircraft?
The Japanese attack is diluted by half, if nothing else, Yorktown might not take OTLs three bombs and two torpedoes during the battle
 
Eh?
So Sara shows up and adds nothing to the fight? Her Fighters and AAA don't do a thing to the attacking aircraft?
The Japanese attack is diluted by half, if nothing else, Yorktown might not take OTLs three bombs and two torpedoes during the battle

The attackers took heavy losses. With the Saras CAP added in losses would have been higher & hits fewer.
 
Plus Sara despite her age, her sheer size makes her reasonable at absorbing hits, like Lex did. Meaning they may think the got both Sara and York but thanks to York's exceptional DMG control could withdraw if Sara can't be recovered but not in immediate danger of sinking
 
Send Sara out as a fighter heavy carrier perhaps ?

I doubt that would happen, it just wasn't part of the USN doctrine at the time. Focus was on striking power, so if the air group was going to be heavy it would be towards strike aircraft not fighters.
Saratoga's squadrons would return to her, leaving her with her normal complement.
If I remember my Lundstrom (The First Team), the USN was short pilots and trained squadrons at the time of Midway and even through the fall of 1942, so little assistance there.
However, the USMC squadrons are carrier- capable, so they could be assigned to supplement Yorktown's depleted carrier group for Midway.
Not optimal since they haven't trained together but better than sending her out short aircraft and pilots.
 
... Yorktown due to 'modern' damage control (CO2 fire suppression) fights the fires and becomes operational again in a few hours. Saratoga has no modern damage control due to being a reworked battlecruiser and thus succumbs to her injuries later on. ..L

Saratogas DC was suffcient to deal with two separate torpedo hits, in January & then September. the crew must have been doing something right. Was the firefighting systemn upgraded in the early 1942 refit?
 
Saratoga's VF-3 and VT-3 were aboard Yorktown, so what is Saratoga carrying into the battle? Or does Yorktown go with a reduced air-group?

https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2007/june/flying-beehive-fighting-three-midway

Regards,

The Saratoga brought a complete new air wing from the US. Plus there were new squadrons assembling on Oahu. VT8, the Torpedo 8 of Midway fame had been 210% over strength in aircrew when it embarked for the Midway battle. Half the aircrew were left @ PH. When the carriers returned to PH VT8 was able to return to operational readiness as fast as the aircraft could be assigned.
 
The Saratoga brought a complete new air wing from the US. Plus there were new squadrons assembling on Oahu. VT8, the Torpedo 8 of Midway fame had been 210% over strength in aircrew when it embarked for the Midway battle. Half the aircrew were left @ PH. When the carriers returned to PH VT8 was able to return to operational readiness as fast as the aircraft could be assigned.

But if Sara didn't go to the west coast for refit she wouldn't be available to bring and workup a new airgroup. One reason VT-8 was aircrew heavy was it was being converted to the TBF so extra crew had been prepositioned to work up on the new planes. The first 6 had been sent to Midway and used from the island.

If Sara is there and takes her existing airgroup it would leave Yorktown without an experienced air component. If Anything I could see Yorktown being sent out with a scratch airgroup heavy in fighters and scoutplanes to be used for CAP and anti sub patrol.

So on the upside with more CAP and ASW the Yorktown may survive. But The Japanese carrier force was already wiped out. You may sink or damage some other ships but you are not going to improve the strategic win you already have.
 
The workup can be completed in time. There were two stages and leaving out or cutting corners can get Saratoga to the battle. It needs to depart the west coast 8-10 days earlier. Putting squadrons aboard would be done just to get them to Oahu, and provide them more deck training.

When the Saratoga did join the others off Midway it brough along a overload as replacements for losses on the others. So there were extra squadrons on Oahu.

keeping the Yorktown afloat has strategic knock on effects down the line. Rehabbed for the autumn battles means possible better outcomes in the Solomons. maybe even the Japanese realizing they have lost Guadalcanal a month or two sooner.
 
How much different would the Battle of Midway be if the USS Saratoga was able to participate.

The POD being she wasn't torpedoed by Japanese submarine I6 while heading towards a rendezvous with USS Enterprise in January 1942.
Would it participate in the Battle of the Corral Sea?
1) If yes, with better fighter cover Lexington might perhaps not have been sunk. Or greater effect achieved in attack on Shokaku and Zuikaku. If Japan lost, say, not only Shoho, but also Shokaku with Zuikaku badly damaged and lower casualties caused to US carriers, would Yamamoto still throw everything into a similar operation at Midway?

2) If not, there is a hitch. If I remember correctly, the Saratoga airplanes and crews stationed in Hawaii were used to reinforce Yorktown after Corral Sea. So it's a question if in the ATL Saratoga and Yorktown would have enough airplanes and crew to operate at Midway both.

3) If they had enough planes and crews, it would probably join the task force with Yorktown and her fighter bombers operating along with Yorktown's planes could finish of Hiryu in the first round (let's keep in mind that Yorktown's SBDs destroyed Soryu, while flying only in half the numbers (I think 17) because the other half was used earlier that day for reconnaissance. So with Saratoga present, there would be another 30-35 SBDs attacking the poor little Hiryu. Bombers from Enterprise would destroy Akagi and Kaga as in OTL and SBDs from Hornet would still be desperately lost. Hiryu at least incapacitated if not destroyed in the first wave would prevent it sending the two attacks that crippled Yorktown.

In football terms, the score would be 4:0 instead of 4:1.

Or possibly a nervous rookie radio operator from Saratoga would by mistake send a wireless detected by the Japanese sending a wave destroying all four US carriers:) Who knows...
 
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