WI USS Constitution became HMS Constitution?

67th Tigers

Banned
The H.M.S. Guerriere was a former french ship, this meant it had already lost a battle when the British took it. It was standard practice in the Royal Navy to down grade ships like the Guerriere and thus talking about Royal Navy ships being equipped with 18 pounders is missleading because the Guerriere was equipped with 8 pounders. The USS Constitution could have been made out of tissue and it still would have won. I am always surprised when the Constitution/Guerriere encounter is described as some epic battle, that would be like compareing the invasion of Grenada with D-Day.

Java was also a prize.

French ships were much more lightly built than their British equivalents, but could outsail them. This made them useful for patrolling low-risk stations, such as the Americas. Both Guerriere and Java were so badly damaged by their encounters with the US 24 pdr frigates that they were unsalvagable.

Macedonian was a really solid 18 pdr frigate, but an early hit allowed United States to dictate the range, and she stood off at a range were her guns were effective against Macedonian's armour, but Macedonian's guns were ineffective against United States' armour.

When a RN 24 pdr frigate met a US 24 pdr frigate the result was "President" becoming a classical RN name.
 
Nytram, since no one else thought to mention it I thought I would add that a RN SOL of the 1st class would actually be dramatically more powerful than a 'mere' 74 gun SOL.

A frigate challenging an SOL with 100+ guns would probably have first elicited a mild response from the British, something along the lines of "is he actually challenging us?".:D



As for the theory of an American frigates, at least the three most powerful, being able to take an SOL in poor weather conditions I might note that it was never even attempted and the SOL's larger guns and vastly larger crew would have made it extremely dubious to try.
 
As for the theory of an American frigates, at least the three most powerful, being able to take an SOL in poor weather conditions I might note that it was never even attempted and the SOL's larger guns and vastly larger crew would have made it extremely dubious to try.
Well, it's not entire unprecedented... after all a couple of British Frigates did suceed in destroying a french Ship of the Line in heavy weather.
 
Out of interest, was the USS Constitution a match for a first rate British Ship of the line? By which I mean the likes of HMS Victory.
No, it would be the equivalent of a modern destroyer challenging a modern carrier. They were ships of different weight classes designed for different purposes. While the destroyer could get in some licks (a mast shot away will ruin anyone's day frigate or battleship) it will eventually be pounded into the seafloor by the massive firepower superiority of the bigger ship. Constitution was designed to be heavier then ships of her class but faster then those that are above her so she could out fight the featherweights and out sail the heavyweights. If she met a proper ship of line her response would look something like this. See bottom.
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When a RN 24 pdr frigate met a US 24 pdr frigate the result was "President" becoming a classical RN name.
Actually there are 3 previous HMS Presidents. 2 British built, one a French prize so while keeping the name was a jab it was a classic beforehand.

Chase_of_the_Constitution,_July_1812.jpg
 
Constitution could possibly have been a match for a 74 in a storm severe enough to prevent the two-decker from opening its lower gunports. Certainly not a three-decker, though. Victory outguns Constitution (as long as she stays out of carronade range) even without the lower-deck guns, and Constitution's captain certainly wouldn't want to close to use his carronades- if Victory manages to open her lower gunports and bring those long 32s into play, he's sunk.

I think that this scenario was actually (sort of) tested IOTL. I can't remember the specifics, but there was one incident where, upon encountering a British 74, Constitution withdrew and abandoned some prizes that she had just captured. Not real combat, but under the circumstances the Americans believed battle to be unwise.
 

Blair152

Banned
Nytram, since no one else thought to mention it I thought I would add that a RN SOL of the 1st class would actually be dramatically more powerful than a 'mere' 74 gun SOL.

A frigate challenging an SOL with 100+ guns would probably have first elicited a mild response from the British, something along the lines of "is he actually challenging us?".:D



As for the theory of an American frigates, at least the three most powerful, being able to take an SOL in poor weather conditions I might note that it was never even attempted and the SOL's larger guns and vastly larger crew would have made it extremely dubious to try.
Do you remember the opening scene from Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World? HMS Surprise is taken by surprise by an American-
built French frigate, the Acheron, and has to kedge its way into a fog bank. That was reminiscent of what the USS Constitution did in July 1812
against the squadron of British frigates. That's why they didn't.
 
Blair152, it was far more than mere kedging. The tale is an impressive one and displayed great skill on both sides and could easily have gone either way.


Cockroach, one of the British ships was lost, the other severely mauled and the larger British frigate was commanded by the famous Edward Pellew whose seamanship could not be doubted while the seamanship of French SOLs during the Napoleonic Wars was often and justifiably in doubt.

I seriously doubt an officer of Pellew's ability would have done as he did if he was up against an SOL whose fleet was considered comparable to the RN in standards of skill and training.
 
Going back to the original question, if HMS GUERRIERE defeats USF CONSTITUTION the impact depends on whether Constitution sinks (like GUERRIERE in OTL) or is capture and take back to Great Britain.

If she sinks, not a lot of difference, one least US frigate, the RN goes on ignorant of the capabilities of a true Humphrey’s frigate meaning either USF UNITED STATES or USF PRESIDENT gets addition victories until the Admiralty issues orders against engaging US frigates one on one as in OTL.

If she captured, I strongly suspect the RN will go over her with fine tooth comb. In OTL the CAPT of GUERRIERE’s report of the battle was not take seriously, the Admiralty wouldn’t accept a bigger ship with 36 pounders on the gun deck being a better sailer. Captured the will notice differences.

CONSTITUTION was built to Joshua Humphrey’s plans (as stated earlier in the thread CHESAPEAKE wasn't built to Humphrey’s plans or specs, she was material mess), the RN discovers the diagonal scantling (rib) scheme, explaining how and why the US 44s (CONSTITUTION, UNITED STATES, and PRESIDENT were 44s, CONGRESS, CONSTELLATION and CHESAPEAKE were 36s), could be that big, carry that heavy a gun load, and be as fast and maneuverable as smaller ships. All leading to an earlier order against engaging USN one on one. The remainder of US frigate either fall to RN squadrons or stay harbor. Also the interesting possibility that the RN tries to copy the Humphrey’s 44….

Note, afte the war this is what the RN did with HMS (nee USF) PRESIDENT, they took a part, and were shock to discover the diagonal scantling, but it did answer the question.
 

Blair152

Banned
The H.M.S. Guerriere was a former french ship, this meant it had already lost a battle when the British took it. It was standard practice in the Royal Navy to down grade ships like the Guerriere and thus talking about Royal Navy ships being equipped with 18 pounders is missleading because the Guerriere was equipped with 8 pounders. The USS Constitution could have been made out of tissue and it still would have won. I am always surprised when the Constitution/Guerriere encounter is described as some epic battle, that would be like compareing the invasion of Grenada with D-Day.
I didn't know that. HMS Java was also a former French ship. The USS United
States took the British frigate HMS Macedonian because Macedonian's captain mistook her for Essex, which mounted carronades, not long guns, and the majority of her crew was made up of impressed American seamen who wanted to be taken prisoner, in fact, if you read the book Broadside,
you'll find this story is true, because they didn't want to fight against the United States.
 
The RN had 5 frigates of equal or superior power (Indefatigable, Anson, Magnanime, Endymion and Cambrian), and had ordered two more 24 pdr frigates in Jan. 1812 when war with the US seemed likely, and continued to build more during the war.

Had Constitution been taken then she'd join the other heavy frigates as HMS Constitution, and in 1813 the RN would have 11 rather than 10 vessels of this type.

BTW: Guerriere was a French built prize, considered too weak for front line duties and so kept well away from the real fighting by sending to patrol American waters before the War of 1812 blew up.
HMS Guerriere would be considered a slow, light frigate. Two full classes below the Constitution. The AVERAGE British frigate could give a much better accounting for herself before being forced to strike her colors. Such a vessel , with a more stoutly built hull, would not be so shattered as to require scuttling. Indeed, she could be quite reparable assuming she could get past the British blockade (and then get out again:D). Such a frigate would make a good addition to the US Navy, but would probably be kept in close American territorial waters.

Also, in such a match, the Constitution would not emerge so nearly unscathed as she was against HMS Guerriere. How much damage she would suffer at the hands of a standard British frigate would depend on the metal of her Captain, and the training and experience of her crew.:)
 
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