WI USA refuse to recognize British blockade of Germany WW1

Gendarmerie

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What if the American government refuse to recognize the British blockade of Germany in WW1 and keep on trying to trade with Germany to the point of sending convoys protected by warships?Would the British empire risk war with the USA to prevent trade between USA and Germany or allow the trading to continue breaking the blockade?
 
What if the American government refuse to recognize the British blockade of Germany in WW1 and keep on trying to trade with Germany to the point of sending convoys protected by warships?Would the British empire risk war with the USA to prevent trade between USA and Germany or allow the trading to continue breaking the blockade?
Why would they do this? The United States had far more trade with Britain than it did with Germany. Actions that drastic would require political support.
 
The USA was too isolationist to just send warships into a warzone. If the country gets that upset (say over exports or lack of German dyes the American textile industry used) they'd use trade with Britain as leverage.
 
Britain needed US capital and materials. If they react with anything other than harsh language it may be at their own peril.
 
The US did object to some British maritime practices but contented itself with protests. There were a number of reasons not to go further and risk a diplomatic breach or even war:

(1) Any complaints about the UK were overshadowed by German submarine warfare which, unlike British actions, killed Americans.

(2) Even if no Americans were killed by the blockade, the US might have retaliated if the US economy were in danger of being crippled. It was not. As I wrote in soc.history.what-if some years ago: "There *was* considerable anger among Southerners over the blockade preventing cotton from reaching Germany. In 1915 it was thought that Southerners might join with German- and Irish-Americans in Congress to demand an arms embargo in retaliation for the British suppression of the cotton trade with Central Europe. John Sharp Williams, the pro-British Senator from Mississippi, spoke truthfully when he said that every politician in the South had to be anti-British. On June 28, 1915 the Georgia state legislature petitioned President Wilson to take every measure "diplomatic if possible, retaliatory if necessary" to open American trade in cotton with neutral European ports. However, the British defused this problem by a secret agreement for the British government to buy enough cotton to stabilize the price at ten cents a pound. See the discussion in Arthur S. Link, *Woodrow Wilson and the Progressive Era 1910-1917* (Harper Torchbooks edition 1963), pp. 170-2." Grey put it best: the British objective was "to secure the maximum of blockade that could be enforced without a rupture with the United States." https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...eep-trading-with-germany.471362/#post-1920173

(3) "Northern precedents from 1861 to 1865" which the UK cited perhaps left the US in a poor position to lecture the UK on the law of nations as applied to blockades, as I noted at https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...ep-trading-with-germany.471362/#post-19201730
 
Yep DavidT's post is excellent.

a couple of other points. *(although really they just build off DavidT's)

The UK didn't just magically put it in place one day to the US's surprise, there would have been a discussion with the US first about how it would work

The US and UK were the two primary maritime powers in the world at that point, both know they both benefit if have each other's backs when it come to maintaining a blockade

But it wasn't unconditional support, the UK couldn't go too far and had to compensate of offer alternatives to US loses, and it all went hand in hand with the tactic of making worth the US's while to support the entente in general over the CP, meaning there were long term benefits to the US if the entente win and thus a successful entente blockade of the CP.
 
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Why would they do this? The United States had far more trade with Britain than it did with Germany. ...
... maybe a wee bit too simple/simplicistic/simple-minded(?) approach ...
But better ones have been offered, luckily.🙂
Yep DavidT's post is excellent.
...
Without a doubt.

However none of the above named or prior to this on other occasions mentioned reasons which could also be augmented by some other minor fields of 'discontempt' in anglo-american relations lead IOTL to openly "unfriendly" acts.

Nevertheless things could have gone different like the US of A domestic discussion of the ship purchase bill act causing more ... "unrest" within the goverment as well as congress together with some less "calmly" handeled (though nevertheless rather 'strained') diplomatic exchange between the US of A from 7th August onwards to sometime in October (?) and Great Britain regarding the latters asked (short of demanded) for adhaerence to the London Declaration of Laws of Naval War when Britain finally repelled this together with some situation occuring (once again) around Vera Cruz and the Huasteca oil dwells which were so important to Britain during the mexicvan civil war ...
IMHO there is well enough potential for some further deterrioriating of anglo-american relastions that some ... 'incident' wihtin the atlantic might act as the proverbial sh - - hitting the fan. It should not be forgotten that the US of A at this period of time had already started its race to replace the British Empire as the leading economical, financial and naval power what the british politicians regardless their political affiliation were NOT easily ready to accept.

I simply do not believe in this so often as seemingly "written-in-stone" perception of anglo-american alliance no matter what.


...
The UK didn't just magically put it in place one day to the US's surprise, there would have been a discussion with the US first about how it would work

The US and UK were the two primary maritime powers in the world at that point, both know they both benefit if have each other's backs when it come to maintaining a blockade

But it wasn't unconditional support, the UK couldn't go too far and had to compensate of offer alternatives to US loses, and it all went hand in hand with the tactic of making worth the US's while to support the entente in general over the CP, meaning there were long term benefits to the US if the entente win and thus a successful entente blockade of the CP.
... aside such personal perceptions and assumptions ...
Do you - or anybody else - have any evidence/source for ?
... like the ones I already asked for ?
 
Yep DavidT's post is excellent.

a couple of other points. *(although really they just build off DavidT's)

The UK didn't just magically put it in place one day to the US's surprise, there would have been a discussion with the US first about how it would work

The US and UK were the two primary maritime powers in the world at that point, both know they both benefit if have each other's backs when it come to maintaining a blockade

But it wasn't unconditional support, the UK couldn't go too far and had to compensate of offer alternatives to US loses, and it all went hand in hand with the tactic of making worth the US's while to support the entente in general over the CP, meaning there were long term benefits to the US if the entente win and thus a successful entente blockade of the CP.

Quite Blockade is a legitimate means of war, the methods used by the British were consistent with International law, and the breadth of the blockade had been tested in the US courts after the civil war.

The post is basically what if the US in flagrant violation of International and US law chooses to go to war with the Entente in order to provide goods to broke ass central powers currently busy enslaving Belgians and killing babies.

This does not end well for the administration.
 

Garrison

Donor
... aside such personal perceptions and assumptions ...
Do you - or anybody else - have any evidence/source for ?
... like the ones I already asked for ?
Here's a resources it took me a whole 5 minutes of googling to find:

The British Blockade During World War I: The Weapon of Deprivation

It has an extensive bibliography at the end of the article/essay. As the article makes clear yes the British did buy up materials to prevent them being sold to Germany as well as a range of other measures.
 
Britain needed US capital and materials. If they react with anything other than harsh language it may be at their own peril.
Not in 1914 maybe later but in 1914 th
e losses are on both sides of the balance sheet
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Yep DavidT's post is excellent.

a couple of other points. *(although really they just build off DavidT's)

The UK didn't just magically put it in place one day to the US's surprise, there would have been a discussion with the US first about how it would work

The US and UK were the two primary maritime powers in the world at that point, both know they both benefit if have each other's backs when it come to maintaining a blockade

But it wasn't unconditional support, the UK couldn't go too far and had to compensate of offer alternatives to US loses, and it all went hand in hand with the tactic of making worth the US's while to support the entente in general over the CP, meaning there were long term benefits to the US if the entente win and thus a successful entente blockade of the CP.
The RN was, unquestionably, the Big Kid on the Block. The USN? Well, that is a whole different matter. The U.S. Battle Line was formidable, at least on par with the HSF, but after that there were serious problems. American scouting forces were severely deficient. The USN had three Chester class "scout cruisers" i.e. light cruisers, HSF had 11. Destroyers, the USN operated 40, the HSF had 60+. The U.S. also, most glaringly, lacked any battlecruiser or similar fast fleet scout with reasonable reliability.

Whether by intent or due to fiscal constraint (which amounts to much the same thing) the USN was a very potent defensive force with virtually no ability to seek out an enemy on the open sea. It was fully capable of putting a serious twist on any enemy attacking the U.S. Eastern Seaboard, but going out a few hundred miles to pick a fight? Not so much.
 

BooNZ

Banned
Quite Blockade is a legitimate means of war, the methods used by the British were consistent with International law, and the breadth of the blockade had been tested in the US courts after the civil war.
No, the blockade was a legitimate means of war, but the methods employed by the British from late 1914 were outside the scope of what was recognised to be a blockade, which was why the British never declared a formal blockade, instead relying on an obscure doctrine of retaliation to enforce its measures. It was the architect of British foreign policy (Grey) who described the 1909 Treaty of London as a fair reflection of international naval law and I understand (even without ratification), it was followed by minor belligerents prior to 1914.

How do domestic courts in the US have retrospective jurisdiction over international events and territories? Further, like most other significant powers, the US a signatory to the 1909 Treaty of London that the British essentially ignored and championing.

The post is basically what if the US in flagrant violation of International and US law chooses to go to war with the Entente in order to provide goods to broke ass central powers currently busy enslaving Belgians and killing babies.
No. It is what if the US did not choose to ignore the flagrant British violation of international laws and instead chose to defend of the rights of neutral powers being violated by the British piracy policy?

This does not end well for the administration.
I'm not an expert on US domestic politics of the period, but I don't think either party advocated intervention. The CP powers do not need the US to intervene to sink the Entente war effort. I expect a stricter neutrality would be more-or-less consistent with the policy platform of most US politicians of the day.
 

Deleted member 109224

Weren't the British just intercepting US ships bound for Germany and purchasing whatever it was that the Americans were selling to the Germans? That doesn't seem like a big problem for the American shippers.
 

BooNZ

Banned
Yep DavidT's post is excellent.

a couple of other points. *(although really they just build off DavidT's)

The UK didn't just magically put it in place one day to the US's surprise, there would have been a discussion with the US first about how it would work

The US and UK were the two primary maritime powers in the world at that point, both know they both benefit if have each other's backs when it come to maintaining a blockade

But it wasn't unconditional support, the UK couldn't go too far and had to compensate of offer alternatives to US loses, and it all went hand in hand with the tactic of making worth the US's while to support the entente in general over the CP, meaning there were long term benefits to the US if the entente win and thus a successful entente blockade of the CP.
I don't see the Nexus.

Mr T correctly stated "the US did object to some British maritime practices but contented itself with protests. There were a number of reasons not to go further and risk a diplomatic breach or even war..." Conversely, you have intimated an Anglo-American collaboration in respect of the blockade, which as far as I am aware, did not actually exist. The British response to the initial US suggestion everyone comply with the 1909 London Declaration was to tell the US to suck it. Britain was following the traditional custom and practice of the blockading power doing whatever it could get away with. From my understanding the British felt confident enough to more-or-less do as it pleased until some time in 1916, when the balance of power shifted to the other side of the Atlantic. The British transition from bully to beggar was remarkably swift.
 
I don't see the Nexus.

Mr T correctly stated "the US did object to some British maritime practices but contented itself with protests. There were a number of reasons not to go further and risk a diplomatic breach or even war..." Conversely, you have intimated an Anglo-American collaboration in respect of the blockade, which as far as I am aware, did not actually exist. The British response to the initial US suggestion everyone comply with the 1909 London Declaration was to tell the US to suck it. Britain was following the traditional custom and practice of the blockading power doing whatever it could get away with. From my understanding the British felt confident enough to more-or-less do as it pleased until some time in 1916, when the balance of power shifted to the other side of the Atlantic. The British transition from bully to beggar was remarkably swift.


The nexus is while in a perfect world the US would wish the UK blockade didn't exist, and certainly was looking out for it's own interests when it came to the blockade (perfectly reasonably so). It knows it was not a perfect world, it was in fact a world where European powers were going to war and pretty much the first thing the UK was going to do was leverage it's naval might to blockade Germany. So the blockade was a fact of life. Moreover as a potential user of blockades itself in a world that contains the RN, the US recognised that it was better for the UK & US to be as much in sync with each other in terms of supporting each other's blockades as was reasonable.

Once Britain said it would basically buy the stuff it takes off US ships bound for the CP, it basically suits everyone (well except the CP of course).

The US doesn't lose trade or sales, and so isn't hurt by the blockade, more over it knows that with the war demand for its exports is likely about to go significantly up, a lot easier to sell to the entente than the CP in this context.

The UK blocks supplies to Germany, (gets supplies) and in fact more closely ties the US to Entente sucess economically speaking.

The RN was, unquestionably, the Big Kid on the Block. The USN? Well, that is a whole different matter. The U.S. Battle Line was formidable, at least on par with the HSF, but after that there were serious problems. American scouting forces were severely deficient. The USN had three Chester class "scout cruisers" i.e. light cruisers, HSF had 11. Destroyers, the USN operated 40, the HSF had 60+. The U.S. also, most glaringly, lacked any battlecruiser or similar fast fleet scout with reasonable reliability.

Whether by intent or due to fiscal constraint (which amounts to much the same thing) the USN was a very potent defensive force with virtually no ability to seek out an enemy on the open sea. It was fully capable of putting a serious twist on any enemy attacking the U.S. Eastern Seaboard, but going out a few hundred miles to pick a fight? Not so much.

That's fair enough, sorry I realise I kind of gave the impression they were equal. I was more trying to say that as the two larger naval powers about in terms of being out and about and actively pursuing foreign economic policy (The Germans being bottled up at this point, The France obviously having no issue with the blockade). I.e. that it kind of works better off if they can co-operate as much as other policy will allow.
 
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Quite Blockade is a legitimate means of war, the methods used by the British were consistent with International law, and the breadth of the blockade had been tested in the US courts after the civil war.

The post is basically what if the US in flagrant violation of International and US law chooses to go to war with the Entente in order to provide goods to broke ass central powers currently busy enslaving Belgians and killing babies.

This does not end well for the administration.

I don't think breaking a blockade is a violation of international laws/norms for a Declaration of War, especially in this time period.

That said, the actions by the British would be sufficient to prevent the US breaking the blockade heavily, and the US wasn't really willing to go all in against the Brits.
 

BooNZ

Banned
Ban
The nexus is while in a perfect world the US would wish the UK blockade didn't exist, and certainly was looking out for it's own interests when it came to the blockade (perfectly reasonably so). It knows it was not a perfect world , it was in fact world where European powers were going to war and pretty much the first thing the UK was going to do was leverage it's naval might to blockade Germany. So the blockade was a fact life. Moreover as a potential user of blockades itself in a world that contains the RN, the US recognised that it was better for the UK & US to be as much as in sync with each other in terms fo supporting each other blockades as was reasonable.
In the first instance, the US might assume that as a signatory on the Treaty of London, Britain might actually abide by the promises it had made. Folks on these boards are keen to highlight the leader of Germany prior to WW2 could not be trusted by anybody because of the promises he broke (with the British and French contrivance) prior to WW2, but the promises said leader broke (prior to 1939) did not result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians. But sure, fact of life etc...

I continue to struggle to understand your claim the British strangling of neutral international shipping was in the best interests of the USA, when the USA (together with Britain and the the civilized world) had signed the Treaty of London, which was clearly inconsistent with such British measures. It is scandalous enough to suggest Britain signed and promoted the Treaty of London with the intention to ignore its obligations, but the Treaty clearly favoured the interests of isolationist and neutral powers such as the US.

Once Britain said it would basically buy teh stuff it takes off US ships bound for the CP, it basically suits everyone (well except the CP of course).
Again (by proxy), do you have a reference? Beyond isolated antidotes, I don't understand that to be the underlying method of British enforcement of the 'blockade'.

The US doesn't lose trade or sales, and so inst hurt by the blockade, more over it knows that with the war demand for its exports is likely about to go significantly up, a lot easier to sell to the entente than the CP in this context.
The US does not lose sales by insisting the Entente abide by the promises it made in respect of the Treaty of London. As has been discussed elsewhere, the Entente in most cases does not have viable alternatives to the US as a supplier for most of its war materials. Selling vast quantities of food for the consumption of CP civilians does not appear to be an unreasonable expectation or a political hot potato.

The UK blocks supplies to Germany, (gets supplies) and in fact more closely ties the US to Entente sucess economically speaking.
As outlined in other threads, from 1914 the US was mindful not to be tied to the Entente war effort, since that would be a threat to its status as a neutral.

That's fair enough, sorry I realise kind of gave the impression they were equal. I was more trying to say that as the two larger naval powers about in terms of being out and about and actively pursuing foreign economic policy (The Germans being bottled up at this point, The France obviously having no issue with the blockade). I,e that it kid of works better of if they can co-operate as much as other policy will allow.
You appear to have something resembling khaki on your nose...
 
In the first instance, the US might assume that as a signatory on the Treaty of London, Britain might actually abide by the promises it had made. Folks on these boards are keen to highlight the leader of Germany prior to WW2 could not be trusted by anybody because of the promises he broke (with the British and French contrivance) prior to WW2, but the promises said leader broke (prior to 1939) did not result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians. But sure, fact of life etc...

I like how you magically separate everything pre 1939 so that Hitlers actions before the invasion of Poland are somehow completely separate things that had nothing what so ever do with what happened next let alone the deaths of millions. :rolleyes:

(leaving aside the German occupation of Czechoslovakia ended up with a fair number of deaths)

Let alone the fact that the British blockade was in response to German aggression and invasion of it's neighbours! Of course Hitler's broken promises involved invading his neighbours.

I continue to struggle to understand your claim the British strangling of neutral international shipping was in the best interests of the USA,


Read what I posted, Of course in a perfect world it wasn't! But if you think there's not going to be a blockade you are fooling yourself. The Americans however were not fooling themselves they knew the UK would blockade Germany. You can write what ever you think about the legality of that as much as you want (although I'm not clear on the argument see below) but it doesn't change that especially once the first 100 days have made it clear as to the stakes now in play it's going to happen. My point was the US co-operating with UK blockade in the reality of the situation at the time worked out for the US.


when the USA (together with Britain and the the civilized world) had signed the Treaty of London, which was clearly inconsistent with such British measures. It is scandalous enough to suggest Britain signed and promoted the Treaty of London with the intention to ignore its obligations, but the Treaty clearly favoured the interests of isolationist and neutral powers such as the US.

If you think for a minute that the US was ever going to trade freely with both sides at once you are kidding yourself. But the reality is the blockade was seen in the context of Germany invading through Belgium not in abstract i.e. that Germany and Co were the aggressors. This is why international perception was so key especially in the run up to and during the opening moves in 1914 and the German occupations, and not just the demands of the Schlieffen Plan

The final shift to establishing the full blockade came on November 11, 1914, after several German light cruisers were observed attempting to lay mines off the coast of southern England. This act of aggression gave British leaders the impetus they needed to declare the full blockade without U.S. resistance because during the first four months of the war, Britain had confined itself to blocking only war materials from reaching German ports. World opinion of Germany during this time began to deteriorate because of repeated reports of brutality directed against Belgian and French civilians. With world sympathies firmly shifting in the Entente's favor, Britain gained the necessary advocacy it needed to declare its right to institute the blockade, and defend its realm against the aggressive German empire

Because as ever these kind of things are done within the context of what's going on, and not in abstract


Out of interest what is you argument that the Blockade was illegal by the Treaty of London? (do you mean the London declaration of 1909?)

EDIT: I see from an earlier post that you are referring to the London Declaration of 1909 (let's face it there are already enough Treaties of London), which wasn't just not signed by the UK but not ratified by anyone else, it also has some interesting articles in it:

Art. 37. A vessel carrying goods liable to capture as absolute or conditional contraband may be captured on the high seas or in the territorial waters of the belligerents throughout the whole of her voyage, even if she is to touch at a port of call before reaching the hostile destination.


Again (by proxy), do you have a reference?

what that they'd compensate (i.e. buy) seized goods? seriously start at the wiki page and work up.

When American ships were stopped with contraband, the British purchased the entire cargo, and released the empty ship.[12]



Beyond isolated antidotes, I don't understand that to be the underlying method of British enforcement of the 'blockade'.

It wasn't, it was however enough to assuage US concerns. again see above. The standard here is not 'exactly what the US would like in a perfect world', but what was reasonable to expect during a world war. It did have some limitations of course, because obviously it isn't just a blanket "we'll buy anything afloat in the North sea", as you will just have everyone steaming into the North sea with a cargo and making itself known to the RN!


The US does not lose sales by insisting the Entente abide by the promises it made in respect of the Treaty of London. As has been discussed elsewhere, the Entente in most cases does not have viable alternatives to the US as a supplier for most of its war materials. Selling vast quantities of food for the consumption of CP civilians does not appear to be an unreasonable expectation or a political hot potato.


Again what promises in which Treaty of London do you mean?. And again if you really think that the US was ever going to trade freely with both sides of the war than you are kidding yourself

As outlined in other threads, from 1914 the US was mindful not to be tied to the Entente war effort, since that would be a threat to its status as a neutral.


and yet what happened

You appear to have something resembling khaki on your nose...

And how old are you? Also ironic considering you just equated the UK blockade of Germany to Hitler's desire for lebensraum and the eradication of several races
 
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Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
In the first instance, the US might assume that as a signatory on the Treaty of London, Britain might actually abide by the promises it had made. Folks on these boards are keen to highlight the leader of Germany prior to WW2 could not be trusted by anybody because of the promises he broke (with the British and French contrivance) prior to WW2, but the promises said leader broke (prior to 1939) did not result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians. But sure, fact of life etc...

No country that signed the treaty ratified it, in part because Britain did not. How did Germany's actions 1914-18 match up to the ideals they signed up for?

Edit: Ninja'd by TDM.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
In the first instance, the US might assume that as a signatory on the Treaty of London, Britain might actually abide by the promises it had made. Folks on these boards are keen to highlight the leader of Germany prior to WW2 could not be trusted by anybody because of the promises he broke (with the British and French contrivance) prior to WW2, but the promises said leader broke (prior to 1939) did not result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians. But sure, fact of life etc...

I continue to struggle to understand your claim the British strangling of neutral international shipping was in the best interests of the USA, when the USA (together with Britain and the the civilized world) had signed the Treaty of London, which was clearly inconsistent with such British measures. It is scandalous enough to suggest Britain signed and promoted the Treaty of London with the intention to ignore its obligations, but the Treaty clearly favoured the interests of isolationist and neutral powers such as the US.

Again (by proxy), do you have a reference? Beyond isolated antidotes, I don't understand that to be the underlying method of British enforcement of the 'blockade'.

The US does not lose sales by insisting the Entente abide by the promises it made in respect of the Treaty of London. As has been discussed elsewhere, the Entente in most cases does not have viable alternatives to the US as a supplier for most of its war materials. Selling vast quantities of food for the consumption of CP civilians does not appear to be an unreasonable expectation or a political hot potato.

As outlined in other threads, from 1914 the US was mindful not to be tied to the Entente war effort, since that would be a threat to its status as a neutral.

You appear to have something resembling khaki on your nose...
Welp, that'll do.

While slightly less than a full-throated flag wave for the Der Furher this open paragraph does a hell of a nice job of white washing the Reich. Perhaps one might ask the Jews of Czechoslovakia and Austria how they fared under the Reich (oh, wait, really can't do that, can you)?

Just that is enough to make this post a wobbler. However, you were kind enough to include a personal swipe at another member a little more than a week after you came back from a kick for the same sort of thing.

Combined?

To Coventry with you.
 
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