WI: USA Annexes Haiti in Sept 1915?

Zachariah

Banned
The US occupation of Haiti began on July 28, 1915, when 330 US Marines landed at Port-au-Prince, Haiti, on the authority of US President Woodrow Wilson. The first invasion forces had already disembarked from USS Montana on January 27, 1914. The July intervention took place following the murder of dictator President Vilbrun Guillaume Sam by insurgents angered by his political executions of elite opposition, with the USA regarding the anti-American revolt against Sam as a threat to American business interests in the country, especially the Haitian American Sugar Company (HASCO).

In September 1915, the US Senate ratified the Haitian-American Convention, a treaty granting the USA security and economic oversight of Haiti for a 10-year period, with representatives from the USA wielded veto power over all governmental decisions in Haiti, and Marine Corps commanders serving as administrators in the departments. And for the next nineteen years, U.S., government advisers ruled the country, their authority provided by the United States Marine Corps. So then, what if the USA had decided to go all out, make it official, and pursued expansion by ratifying the outright annexation of Haiti instead? What kind of backlash and hostility might this provoke in Haiti and the rest of the Americas, and what would American citizens make of it?
 
Would cause a shitstorm to say the least. Everyone would hate it from Dixiecrats schreeching about more black people and anti colonists being furious that the government engaged in an naked act of Imperialism. No reason to engage in so much controversy when you can accomplish the same thing essentially IOTL
 
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What he said. Folks ask these kinds of questions, often in regards to an unwilling Canada, where some additional lands are forcibly brought into the nation. Unless you can provide a good historical reason, I just don't see the need for the USA to do this. It's not like the Philippines, where due to geography, they provide naval bases in far off waters. Basically, what special situation does Haiti have, that would motivate the USA to force them into statehood?
 
What he said. Folks ask these kinds of questions, often in regards to an unwilling Canada, where some additional lands are forcibly brought into the nation. Unless you can provide a good historical reason, I just don't see the need for the USA to do this. It's not like the Philippines, where due to geography, they provide naval bases in far off waters. Basically, what special situation does Haiti have, that would motivate the USA to force them into statehood?

I´m with you in yours reason for why not annex Haiti, but i think is necessary to point out that Haiti lays in in middle of at least Two important maritime traffic routes, and specifically choke points The Windward Passage and the Mona Passage (you could see the map here https://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch3en/conc3en/img/Map_main_shipping_routes.png) so a unstable Haiti it´s a potential pirate Heaven that lay in a perfect point to ambush a lot of cargo ship. I´m don´t know if is sufficient reason to annex Haiti, but it a good enough reason to intervene and maintain the country relative stable, as we could see it a constant situation from USA AND Latin America Countries after the opening of the Canal de Panama.
Before the Canal no one give a shit about Haiti in the XIX century
 
If Congress didn't want to annex Cuba and past Presidents turned down the chance at Santo Domingo, why would they want Haiti? It is mostly Black (I am not entirely sure how much of the population was descended from Africans and how much was from the Natives of the Caribbean and those sent from North America so they couldn't escape back home), speaks a French Creole that would not be understandable to many in the Us outside of perhaps New Orleans, the population is Catholic, the economy isn't exactly much good... there simply is no one who WANTS this annexation to go through. Not the Haitians and not the Americans. Took over a decade for Hawaii and Texas to be be annexed, and those were filled with English speakers and American citizens.

Also, a big issue about annexation. There was a feeling in the US that territories were only territories until they were filled with enough people to gain statehood. How well will it go over if a country of over a century not asking for it is declared to be annexed? Will it be declared a territory or does it get statehood? Though I suppose Haiti's state government might manage to keep Blacks enfranchised, since it was mostly State governments stopping them from voting elsewhere. On a side note, Latin America is now extremely suspicious of the US. Even more so than before, as they just used treaties about protecting them from European invasions to collect debts and suddenly changed the terms to include compolsurary annexation. No take backs. If the governments of the Caribbean (mainland too, not just the islands) were in a bit better financial state they might start an arms race. Hell, this will be great for the Germans. There had been some OTL issues with Americans being wary of German businessmen both getting influence in Haiti and marrying locals, and this might be a good way for the Germans to try to either mend bridges with Venezuela or once more try to influence Colombia. Doesn't matter if they aren't German colonies. Germans moved all over Latin America, and having the German Empire be able to connect with some countries filled with raw materials and wanting to buy a lot of guns and boats... Yah, I think Berlin would be ecstatic.
 
I´m with you in yours reason for why not annex Haiti, but i think is necessary to point out that Haiti lays in in middle of at least Two important maritime traffic routes, and specifically choke points The Windward Passage and the Mona Passage (you could see the map here https://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch3en/conc3en/img/Map_main_shipping_routes.png) so a unstable Haiti it´s a potential pirate Heaven that lay in a perfect point to ambush a lot of cargo ship. I´m don´t know if is sufficient reason to annex Haiti, but it a good enough reason to intervene and maintain the country relative stable, as we could see it a constant situation from USA AND Latin America Countries after the opening of the Canal de Panama.
Before the Canal no one give a shit about Haiti in the XIX century
Lots of people cared about the island. They just tried to keep it isolated. Or, in the case of the French, come in and threaten to fire on the capital if the Haitians didn't pay a massive amount of gold for decades to buy the freedom of their own populatoin, despite Haiti having won their own independence and the French having abolished (then retracted) slavery.

Anyways, the Americans had Navassa Island and Guantanamo Bay. They also had Puerto Rico, and various agreements to protect most of Central America, as well as the Dominican Republic. No reason why any European powers would come and cease Haiti, just so they could try going through the Panama Canal to trade with California or to go over the vast expanses of the Pacific. The Suez Canal would get them to Asia easily enough.
 
If Congress didn't want to annex Cuba and past Presidents turned down the chance at Santo Domingo, why would they want Haiti? It is mostly Black (I am not entirely sure how much of the population was descended from Africans and how much was from the Natives of the Caribbean and those sent from North America so they couldn't escape back home)]

90% of the population of Haiti Today are descend from Black Slaves, the native population of "La española" was complete and utterly wiped from the island before the French take over
 
Lots of people cared about the island. They just tried to keep it isolated. Or, in the case of the French, come in and threaten to fire on the capital if the Haitians didn't pay a massive amount of gold for decades to buy the freedom of their own populatoin, despite Haiti having won their own independence and the French having abolished (then retracted) slavery

I´m mean cared of the political internal situation of the Island. Why intervene in 1915? Haiti conquered and massacred Santo Domingo in 1805 no one bat a eye, the political and social instability was the norm for Haiti from 1812 to the 2006 at least and I´m including the 1915-1934 period of american intervention, the question is
Why don´t intervene early? have a country with lot of black people that no one give a Fuck what happen to them, a Country that could be a boom to the slaving American South (maybe the French could cared but with money dance the monkey).
Why a country without army to speak off, without navy and without a European patron, so ripe to conquest, specially given the act of a lot of the american filibuster in the XIX century, are give so little attention?

The only new factor in the Equation is the Canal de Panama after the 1914.

And I´m no speaking of European powers take over Haiti, i speaking that Haiti could become a new Haven to pirates like Somalia not long ago.

That is, at my understanding, One of the reason we see political intervention in Haiti in the years 1915-1994 and 2004 where the participant are increasing more Latin America Powers (Argentina in 1994, Brasil and Chile in 2004) We are intruding to maintain a relative stable Haiti so the shipping lines are not threatened (it´s not the only reason but give a lot of realpolitik sense)
 
As I noted in another thread, except for what was necessary to build an isthmian canal, there was very little interest in the US after 1900 in actual annexation of Latin American territory. Even as expansion-minded a president as TR once said, "I want to do nothing but what a policeman has to do in Santo Domingo. As for annexing the island, I have about the same desire to annex it as a gorged boa constrictor might have to swallow a porcupine wrong- end-to." https://books.google.com/books?id=loMc5HzF-usC&pg=PA198 And Wilson in 1913 said "the United States will never again seek one additional foot of territory by conquest." http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=65373

US intervention in Latin America and the Caribbean sought political and economic influence *without* the responsibilities that would go with outright annexation.
 
I´m mean cared of the political internal situation of the Island. Why intervene in 1915? Haiti conquered and massacred Santo Domingo in 1805 no one bat a eye, the political and social instability was the norm for Haiti from 1812 to the 2006 at least and I´m including the 1915-1934 period of american intervention, the question is
Why don´t intervene early? have a country with lot of black people that no one give a Fuck what happen to them, a Country that could be a boom to the slaving American South (maybe the French could cared but with money dance the monkey).
Why a country without army to speak off, without navy and without a European patron, so ripe to conquest, specially given the act of a lot of the american filibuster in the XIX century, are give so little attention?

The only new factor in the Equation is the Canal de Panama after the 1914.

And I´m no speaking of European powers take over Haiti, i speaking that Haiti could become a new Haven to pirates like Somalia not long ago.

That is, at my understanding, One of the reason we see political intervention in Haiti in the years 1915-1994 and 2004 where the participant are increasing more Latin America Powers (Argentina in 1994, Brasil and Chile in 2004) We are intruding to maintain a relative stable Haiti so the shipping lines are not threatened (it´s not the only reason but give a lot of realpolitik sense)

If Haiti ever became a pirate haven, then that means there will be an immediate expedition by either the US or European powers and there will be a new president in Haiti very soon. But really, Haiti has nothing to offer, aside from during the antebellum period where the North will block any attempt from the South to annex Haiti. And the South really hated the idea of Haiti since it was created from a slave rebellion after all, and they tried to ignore the fact it existed. Of course, if you annex it in 1915, you still would people asking the question "should we deport all blacks to Haiti?" in which case the moment a serious movement builds for that you'd expect many Southern politicians to complain that such an idea would be ruinous to the South since that would mean the end of cheap labour and after all, many Southerners genuinely believed that black people were happy where they were and everything was good and right regarding race relations.

If Haiti got annexed, it would be a territory like Puerto Rico. Problem is such a status implies Haitians can easily immigrate to the United States which will certainly not go over well with the South and really the majority of the country.
 
Your are not understanding me or I didn´t explain myself very well.

The point is Haiti it´s more important as a free relative stable state than as a Failed state, or as USA State, his strategical position in middle of the Caribbean ocean is vital to the shipping lines that cross the Canal de Panama

From my point of view what the USA do or left to do is irrelevant to the situation of Haiti BEFORE the Build of the Canal de Panama. Because as you say Haiti have nothing to offer and a lot of the internal problems of the USA in the moment of the possible annexation

After the building of the Canal de Panama Haiti his a different bird, still have nothing to offer, but is a possible danger to the traffic that use the Canal de Panama, this is know to Europe as is know to the USA.

And as You say

If Haiti ever became a pirate haven, then that means there will be an immediate expedition by either the US or European powers and there will be a new president in Haiti very soon.
.

That exactly what we´are doing, The moment Haiti look like could become a Failed State, a serious revolution, Possible political problems, We intervene, 1915 only USA, in 1994 Argentina, Polonia and USA Finally in 2004 Brasil, Canada, Chile and USA.

Haiti is a potential problem so we can´t let be a failed State, and the Same time there is a lot of international pressure that the country remain independent and don´t become a USA State (too much power to the USA in the Caribbean a even easier access to Cuba bad situation as you see it) and annexation before 1915 is possible, no Panama to muddle the situation and a country that no one care a lot. But as you say.

. But really, Haiti has nothing to offer, aside from during the antebellum period where the North will block any attempt from the South to annex Haiti. And the South really hated the idea of Haiti since it was created from a slave rebellion after all, and they tried to ignore the fact it existed. Of course, if you annex it in 1915, you still would people asking the question "should we deport all blacks to Haiti?" in which case the moment a serious movement builds for that you'd expect many Southern politicians to complain that such an idea would be ruinous to the South since that would mean the end of cheap labour and after all, many Southerners genuinely believed that black people were happy where they were and everything was good and right regarding race relations.
If Haiti got annexed, it would be a territory like Puerto Rico. Problem is such a status implies Haitians can easily immigrate to the United States which will certainly not go over well with the South and really the majority of the country.
 
The US can, along with the intervention, have the Haitian government agree to a 99 year lease, or a lease in perpetuity, for a naval base at Cap Haitien or some other convenient location if that is what the US wants. In 1915 the US was not interested in "solving " Haiti's myriad problems, simply making it stable enough not to be a threat to US interests. If the US annexes Haiti, it has now accepted responsibility for a country that has zero infrastructure, something like 90% of the population illiterate and uneducated, non-English speaking (1), and religiously either Catholic or African (Voudon). Oh, and BTW entirely black. If every Haitian and paraded past the US embassy in Port au Prince begging to being annexed the US would not have touched it with a 10 mile pole - even forgetting the personal racism of Wilson. Skippy the ASB would have difficulty making this happen, and would throw up his appendages and go back to trying to make the unmentionable sea mammal work.

(1) Haitian Creole French is not the same dialect as Cajun French, which is more akin to Quebecois French. Haitians can understand "proper" French OK, going the other way not so east although doable even for non-native French speakers who have a good command of the language. Personal experience.
 
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