WI Ulster and the rest of Ireland were united? (during the Troubles)

[Arachnid]

I'm not offended no, but your hostility to the IRA seems greater then I usually encounter on this forum. A bunch of thugs, murderers and gansters yes, but everyone else seems detatched enough to not write them off as just that. You however seem to basically view them as a bunch of career criminals who took up Republicanism as a hobby, spent all their time killing Catholics for not voting Sinn Fein and occasionally blowing up civillians so people didn't forget them.

They were a proper movement, with aims and a command structure. Yes, they maintained their hold over Catholic areas through a mix of fear and awe, but when viewed from an entirely objective point of view that's just political realities. You need to make people fear you and respect you if you want them to support you amd shelter you, and for both Nationalist and Loyalist paramilitaries that was the case.

Not to mention that originally, back in '69, they were somewhat more legitimate in their self-professed role of protectors of the Catholic community.

So yes, I can understand if you have a strong dislike or even hatred for the IRA, personally I have no love for them, but whatever your feelings they deserve some recognition for what they really were rather then what you see them as. A guerilla army operating like hundreds of others across the world.

I assure he's not the only one with those feelings but I suspect those who agree with him (like me) avoid Troubles related topics for fear of setting off a flame war ending in someone getting banned. Let sleeping dogs lie and all that.

I'm not sure how old Ulster is, but are you the only Irish board member with direct experiences of the Troubles?

Well I was alive when Dad was over there. In fact he was only in the UK for my birth because of Ballygawley.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

All this contributing to politics being a subject avoided in the household for the sake of harmony in the household and I formed no political opinions whatsoever until I was about 14, unlike quite a few of my classmates who blindly accepted the fantasticness of the IRA because either they never bothered to learn anything about them or they unquestioningly accepted what their older relatives had to say about it]

Ah yes, you put me to shame with your connections

Actually, I really must talk to all my grandparents about stuff like this. My mums father was recently diagnosed with Alzheimers, so it'd be a good idea to get him to talk me through the old photos now before his memory really starts to go :/

And yes, friends are often dickheads when it comes to politics. Like my mate who wants to join the Royal Marines and calls me, ignorant and an armchair republican, yet won't shut-up about his gun-running grandad when he's pissed.

Now that's before my time. Thank Christ!
Who knows where I would've ended up with a few more years head start.

Falkenburg

Deputy Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, under joint sovergnity of both Dublin and London?

For the record I'm from NI, albeit a pretty middle class area and I'm 37 but I was never personally affected by The Troubles, yes I heard bombs going off or in one case sleeping through an explosion that cracked the window in my bedroom, but I never knew anyone who was killed or injured.

My Religion teachers house got bombed, and then he joined the RA. That's the biggest connection I have.

I assure he's not the only one with those feelings but I suspect those who agree with him (like me) avoid Troubles related topics for fear of setting off a flame war ending in someone getting banned. Let sleeping dogs lie and all that.

Well I was alive when Dad was over there. In fact he was only in the UK for my birth because of Ballygawley.

Well I can understand why you would hate the IRA so much if your father served in NI.
I don't Macragges background, so he could be in a similar situation, but from what I see it's just a guy who's saying "The IRA? The only reason we didn't wipe them out was because they weren't important enough!"

 

[Macragge1]

Well I can understand why you would hate the IRA so much if your father served in NI.
I don't Macragges background, so he could be in a similar situation, but from what I see it's just a guy who's saying "The IRA? The only reason we didn't wipe them out was because they weren't important enough!"

This is something of a misunderstanding; the point I was making is that the reason the Army couldn't completely smash the IRA is because they were small enough to melt into the countryside and the villages. With the rules of engagement as they were in Ulster there was very little that could be done once these groups were underground.

 

[Ulster]

Ah yes, you put me to shame with your connections

Actually, I really must talk to all my grandparents about stuff like this. My mums father was recently diagnosed with Alzheimers, so it'd be a good idea to get him to talk me through the old photos now before his memory really starts to go :/

And yes, friends are often dickheads when it comes to politics. Like my mate who wants to join the Royal Marines and calls me, ignorant and an armchair republican, yet won't shut-up about his gun-running grandad when he's pissed.

What can I say? I come from a long line of interesting and unusual people

You find out the strangest things when you have a chat with your grandparents. When I was doing a project on the World Wars asked my granny about it, since she lived through the second and her dad was in the first - I then discovered that between them my grandparents still had an assortment of ration books, postcards, American and German cap badges, a couple of medals and the bullet fished out of my great grandfather's leg. Though I do regret not talking to my other grandfather about these things before he died - he was a bit of an amateur historian and a lot of the photos and bits of memorabilia he collected make little sense to anyone other than him.

That's the main reason why I just stay quiet whenever I hear anyone say anything leaning to far to the Republican or Loyalist side - I eventually grew tired of trying to puncture peoples' arguments with facts and logic. Thankfully most of my immediate family are fairly logical and calm about politics, and most of my friends are highly derisive of both sides of the argument

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

This is something of a misunderstanding; the point I was making is that the reason the Army couldn't completely smash the IRA is because they were small enough to melt into the countryside and the villages. With the rules of engagement as they were in Ulster there was very little that could be done once these groups were underground.

Really? Because you did call them "laughable" whilst making that point.

We have all gone rather off-topic from what I was originally saying, which IIRC was about Britain invading Ireland again (a favourite topic of mine). My point about the IRA in Ulster was really that their objective post-1969 was to make the administration and military operations within Northetn Ireland as difficult for the British as possible. In that, they succeeded, which is why several British political and military leaders have stated "We could not defeat the IRA."

 

[Falkenburg]

Deputy Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, under joint sovergnity of both Dublin and London?

More likely dead in a ditch somewhere, at the hands of 'Friends' or 'Foes'.
(The ditch looks the same regardless when you're face down in it)

In my youth I would have been ideal cannon fodder if I'd been brave/angry/foolish enough to commit.
(Catholic Grammar School, Lenadoon Avenue, relative poverty, broken home, politically engaged)

I doubt I would have survived to see TUAS.

Falkenburg

 

[Arachnid]

Lenadoon Avenue

Bloody hell, I've heard about that area.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

What can I say? I come from a long line of interesting and unusual people

You find out the strangest things when you have a chat with your grandparents. When I was doing a project on the World Wars asked my granny about it, since she lived through the second and her dad was in the first - I then discovered that between them my grandparents still had an assortment of ration books, postcards, American and German cap badges, a couple of medals and the bullet fished out of my great grandfather's leg. Though I do regret not talking to my other grandfather about these things before he died - he was a bit of an amateur historian and a lot of the photos and bits of memorabilia he collected make little sense to anyone other than him.

That's the main reason why I just stay quiet whenever I hear anyone say anything leaning to far to the Republican or Loyalist side - I eventually grew tired of trying to puncture peoples' arguments with facts and logic. Thankfully most of my immediate family are fairly logical and calm about politics, and most of my friends are highly derisive of both sides of the argument

Well from what I've gleaned, on my fathers fathers side we're all Ulster-Scots CoI untill my great-grandfather married a Catholic.
As for the rest, the Dobsons, Killans and Mackles appear to come from all over the island, as well as a Yiddish connection, or so I've been told.

More likely dead in a ditch somewhere, at the hands of 'Friends' or 'Foes'.
(The ditch looks the same regardless when you're face down in it)

In my youth I would have been ideal cannon fodder if I'd been brave/angry/foolish enough to commit.
(Catholic Grammar School, Lenadoon Avenue, relative poverty, broken home, politically engaged)

I doubt I would have survived to see TUAS.

Falkenburg

Well maybe you'd have had the sense to flee the country? My grandfather spent some years in America after Ronnie Bunting got assassinated. Whether he was worried about getting murdered or picked up by the police I don't really know.

Also, for your viewing pleasure, my religion teacher talking about his time in IRA. It's an unusual experience seeing the man who taught you that abortion is wrong talking about how he ended up in the Crumlin Road Goal

 

[Falkenburg]

Bloody hell, I've heard about that area.

If your father served in Norn Iron I don't doubt it.

Falkenburg

 

[Ulster]

Well from what I've gleaned, on my fathers fathers side we're all Ulster-Scots CoI untill my great-grandfather married a Catholic.
As for the rest, the Dobsons, Killans and Mackles appear to come from all over the island, as well as a Yiddish connection, or so I've been told.

My family history gets sketchier after after we go more than a couple of generations back - all I know about my great great great grandparents is a couple of pictures (one of which makes me fairly certain that my great great great grandfather was a Yugoslav War Criminal), and an assertion by my grandfather that "No Bell has ever or will ever join the Orange Order". But as far as I'm aware it's all a boring set of Ulster Irish Catholics on one side and boring Ulster Scots Presbyterians on the other, until the more recent generations where we get a handful Southerners, Englishmen and Americans.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

My family history gets sketchier after after we go more than a couple of generations back - all I know about my great great great grandparents is a couple of pictures (one of which makes me fairly certain that my great great great grandfather was a Yugoslav War Criminal), and an assertion by my grandfather that "No Bell has ever or will ever join the Orange Order". But as far as I'm aware it's all a boring set of Ulster Irish Catholics on one side and boring Ulster Scots Presbyterians on the other, until the more recent generations where we get a handful Southerners, Englishmen and Americans.

Hmm, did any of your family know Lindsay Crawford or a T.H.Sloane? The leftiest Protestants of the 1900's from what I've gathered, the created the Independent Orange Order, and Crawford eventually left for Canada to form "Protestant Friends of Ireland" which helped Dev visit America.

 

[Ulster]

Hmm, did any of your family know Lindsay Crawford or a T.H.Sloane? The leftiest Protestants of the 1900's from what I've gathered, the created the Independent Orange Order, and Crawford eventually left for Canada to form "Protestant Friends of Ireland" which helped Dev visit America.

Not to my knowledge - from what I gather from my grandfather that side of my family was rather apathetic about the whole politics thing in general, and opposed to the explicitly discriminatory Protestantism associated with the Orange Order in particular, so as far as I'm aware they weren't part of it or any splinters from it (though as I said, my knowledge is a tad incomplete)

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

Not to my knowledge - from what I gather from my grandfather that side of my family was rather apathetic about the whole politics thing in general, and opposed to the explicitly discriminatory Protestantism associated with the Orange Order in particular, so as far as I'm aware they weren't part of it or any splinters from it (though as I said, my knowledge is a tad incomplete)

Well those two were also opposed to that, hell Sloane was one of the most popular candidates to run in Belfast untill he became too sympathetic to Home Rule.

 

[Simreeve]

But they won't have any local support in Ireland either, unless you count Ulster.

So really, even if they have the troops to simply blanket Ireland, they're still going to be dealing with hostile population and continued military/terrorist actions against troops in urban locations. So how are the going to win this?

The initial question seemed to be the IDF trying to occupy Ulster: That I'm sure the British army would defeat quite handily, whether the IDF tried those guerilla tactics or not.
I agree that a British military occupation of the south these days would be pretty much impossible, due to the effects on public opinion both at home and abroad as well as (unless we massively expanded the army) for any military reasons... but then we wouldn't try to do that nowadays, anyway, unless the southern government did something extremely stupid -- such as trying to annex Ulster by force, or hosting Al Quaeda training camps -- to provoke us.

Ireland would be rather easier than Afghanistan militarily, though: Lower population, lower proportion of that population with years of combat experience, lower proportion of that population already well armed, smaller area, less rugged terrain, no friendly or even neutral land borders over which supplies could be smuggled (and across which guerrillas might be able to retreat temporarily), and a more 'advanced' civilisation hence greater public vulnerability to control or destruction of infrastructure... It would be public opinion, and the fact that as the place already has a reasonable system of government and level of development we couldn't offer either of those to sweeten the deal so that there'd be no forseeable way of ending the situation well, that would be the more serious problems.

Well I was born in '94, hell I didn't really know I was Catholic untill I was 10 and my mother informed me that no, we weren't Jewish, despite worshipping the same God .

There used to be a joke that Belfast was the best city in Europe to be Jewish... because the local Christians were too busy hating each other to have any time or energy left over for being anti-semitic...

 

[Falkenburg]

There used to be a joke that Belfast was the best city in Europe to be Jewish...

Depends on whether you were a Protestant Jew, or a Catholic Jew.

Falkenburg

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

Depends on whether you were a Protestant Jew, or a Catholic Jew.

Falkenburg

Wasn't the punchline that if you were a Jew in Belfast and were confronted by an armed gang, they would be the only Palestinian gang in Belfast?

 

[Falkenburg]

I was thinking about the one with the Agnostic Student.

Falkenburg

 

[Ulster]

Wasn't the punchline that if you were a Jew in Belfast and were confronted by an armed gang, they would be the only Palestinian gang in Belfast?

That's the version I heard

"Catholic or Protestant?"

David Rosenburg breathed a sigh of relief. "Neither, I'm Jewish"

"Well then" said Muhammad "that must make me the luckiest Arab in all of Ireland"

 

[sendô]

I'm not offended no, but your hostility to the IRA seems greater then I usually encounter on this forum. A bunch of thugs, murderers and gansters yes, but everyone else seems detatched enough to not write them off as just that. You however seem to basically view them as a bunch of career criminals who took up Republicanism as a hobby, spent all their time killing Catholics for not voting Sinn Fein and occasionally blowing up civillians so people didn't forget them.

They were a proper movement, with aims and a command structure. Yes, they maintained their hold over Catholic areas through a mix of fear and awe, but when viewed from an entirely objective point of view that's just political realities. You need to make people fear you and respect you if you want them to support you amd shelter you, and for both Nationalist and Loyalist paramilitaries that was the case.

Utter codswallop. The IRA used fear and intimidation of their "own" catholics in order to keep them in line and maintain their own position of power. They were not ideologists fighting a just cause, they were thugs addicted to power who enjoyed killing and mutilating innocent people, which is why their campaign of terror continued unceasingly for years despite it being patently obvious that northern Ireland would NEVER become a part of the south.

Of course their protestant/unionist equivalents did much the same thing, as did a not insignificant proportion of the RUC, which for me is what makes "The Troubles" such a sad period in what is otherwise a lovely country.

 

[Arachnid]

Utter codswallop. The IRA used fear and intimidation of their "own" catholics in order to keep them in line and maintain their own position of power. They were not ideologists fighting a just cause, they were thugs addicted to power who enjoyed killing and mutilating innocent people, which is why their campaign of terror continued unceasingly for years despite it being patently obvious that northern Ireland would NEVER become a part of the south.

Of course their protestant/unionist equivalents did much the same thing, as did a not insignificant proportion of the RUC, which for me is what makes "The Troubles" such a sad period in what is otherwise a lovely country.

I would point you to my earlier comment

I assure he's not the only one with those feelings but I suspect those who agree with him (like me) avoid Troubles related topics for fear of setting off a flame war ending in someone getting banned. Let sleeping dogs lie and all that.

This is a very sensitive topic for a lot of people so lets not start any flame wars and keep the verbal temperature down. Whatever we think in private.